thanks go low i tried your shoulder drill and it put me on a flatter plane, also thinking about the hands not having to travel very far is good also the trevor pic where you put your right hand under your left arm and turn puts you right on plane, i appreciate your help very much. i too have been to local pros without much satisfaction. one pro just made me swing out to a golf ball for 30 minutes without any instruction at all.. trying to get me to swing inside out. i work very hard at the game and i like to know what and why i am doing his or that. i am very excited about starting the downswing with the right shoulder, that feels so good and natural like the right side can now be involved in the swing. thanks again Andy