SMT Durometer

Howdie,

I'm looking to get myself a set of Durometers, and I have a number of questions.

1) It seems virtually impossible to find SMT stuff in the UK, I found one site (Midas Golf) that will sell the heads alone for £25, or this site http://www.bighitgolf.com/smt-golf-s...eter-wedge.php where they'll do a made up club for £36. I emailed BigHit and they seem very helpful and said they'd sell me the head, a ferule, a Dynalite Gold shaft, and Lamkin grip unassembled for £30. Sounds like an absolute bargin to me, but does anyone knoe of anywhere else you can buy Durometers in the UK?

2) Do the odd numbered lofts that SMT offer annoy anyone else? Surely they need to provide one in 61* too, otherwise you can't have 4 wedges and maintain the standard 4* gap between each. I think I'm gonna get a 49* pitcher, a 53* gap, a 55* sand (as it has less bounce than the 57) and the 59* lob as I imagine of all the wedges you'd use, the sand sees the least action. What would you do? Failing that I could make do with just 3 wedges, what do you reckon?

3) I've never built a club before but am really keen to get into it, so I think I'll go for the unassembled pack, as it gives me the opportunity to get the shafts spined and FLOed. However, I'm confused as to tip trimming - is the length of the tip the same for each club (in the same flex of course), and the overall length of the club adjusted at the butt end? If so it seems to me that the stiffer you want the shaft, the shorter the tip you use, correct? So for example, for the Dynalite Gold shaft, the overall length is 40" and the tip length for regular flex is 13.5" and for stiff it is 11.5". Would you remove 2" in tip to convert from regular to stiff? And so would you then have a maximum club length of 38"? So if you had a set of irons from 3 to 9, say, would they all have constant tip lengths of, say, 11.5" for stiff?

4) How important is lie when it comes to wedges? More or less than normal irons? Does anyone know how much it would cost to have the lie adjusted in the UK? Can you bend a club with its shaft intact, so could I build the wedges to my prefered length and then test the lie on a board and have em bent without needing to pull the shafts.

Sorry about the length of this post, I hope you didn't get too bored reading it.

Thanks in advance

Chris

Hey!

Great choice - fire away.

Midas Golf seems to be the pre-eminent SMT supplier in the UK. Although, the SMT website lists Long Drivers of Europe in Stockton-on-the-Tees as the UK distributor.

IMO, another £6 for the assembly of the club (around $12 CAD) isn't a bad price to pay - especially if you have to buy all your club building stuff yet. The other thing that you will likely get them to do if you have them build it is bend it so that you get the yardage gaps you need. More on this later.

Yes, it's annoying to me, but if you buy a set of SMT irons, then they fall right in line. Imagine that. SMT using a classic OEM ploy. On second thought, shame on SMT for doing that! Anyway, you can bend the Duros easily (303 stainless is really soft. They may as well be forged). I've bent mine all 3 or 4 degrees up, and 1 degree weak (I have a 51, 55, 59 setup to go with my standard 48 degree pitching wedge). [/quote]

[quote=Lumlum]3) I've never built a club before but am really keen to get into it, so I think I'll go for the unassembled pack, as it gives me the opportunity to get the shafts spined and FLOed. However, I'm confused as to tip trimming - is the length of the tip the same for each club (in the same flex of course), and the overall length of the club adjusted at the butt end? If so it seems to me that the stiffer you want the shaft, the shorter the tip you use, correct? So for example, for the Dynalite Gold shaft, the overall length is 40" and the tip length for regular flex is 13.5" and for stiff it is 11.5". Would you remove 2" in tip to convert from regular to stiff? [/qoute]

The more tip you remove, the stiffer the shaft gets. So if you tip 11", you get 'R', tip 13" you get 'S' (using your tipping guide), and tipping 15" (if there's enough parallel tip section) gets you 'X'.

Well, if we have a 40" shaft, and we assume that from the bottom of the hosel to the ground is 1", then our maximum club length is 41". Remove 11" from the tip, and we get a 30" club.

Only if the headweights are all the same. As headweight increases, shafts need to be tipped more to get them playing the same flex.

Lie is very important, especially in the wedges. A 1 degree error in the lie of a PW from 100 yards creates a 22 foot miss. If you know what lie and loft you want, you can ask your supplier to bend them, or hand pick them to the specs you need. (Loft will be easier than lie, especially if you need the lie adjusted any more than 1 degree).

Sorry about the brevity of my answers.

__________________
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

Hi lowpost,

It's my birthday coming up soon and I've asked my wife for a Gap wedge. You've kind of sold me on one a SMT Durometer over the past few weeks reading your info about them. Can you give me a bit of advice regarding how to figure out what loft, lie and bounce i want. Currently i have the standard pw from the Nike Pro Combo set. i think it's 48º loft. I know the lie is 1º upright, i don't know the bounce. I have a Nike Sand Wedge that is 56º. don't know lthe bounce either but it's got loads.
So i'm assuming i'm gonna need somwhere about 52º loft. As they only have 51º or 53º which should i got for and how would i go about adjusting it. What equipment will i need. Also do the clubs come ready assembled or do you have to assemble them your self??

__________________
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You don't know what pressure is until you've played for five dollars a hole with only two in your pocket. - Lee Trevino

hi daz
i bought the 53 and 59 deg wedge heads from midas golf and got made 2 measure club builders to fit shafts and grips as per my iron set made by them.
i got them fitted with true temper tx90 shafts and snake eyes gripsfor 20 quid a club.
they are the bo****ks mate
the club builder is in hyde cheshire
just an idea mate

Thanks for that slater. Thanks for the swift reply. I'm not too far from Hyde. you'll have to give us the address if i go down that road. Would you recommend that builder in particular. Did they measure you or did you go with measurements?

Hey Daz,

The spec sheet from Nike has the PCO and PCT at both 47° for the PW.

That leaves us a 7 degree gap assuming both your PW and SW are to spec. This would leave you right around the 51° range. There'll be a slightly bigger yardage gap between your SW and GW than your GW and PW, but most folks use the GW for full swing, so in this particular instance, you'll want your GW to follow down from your PW, I would think.

As for bounce, the 51 is stock 6°, and that should be plenty. Great for all lies, including hardpack bunker.

Now, if you want to get particular, you need to bend the 51 1/2° weak, to split the distance between your PW and SW. You'll need a bending machine, ideally. I've known guys to lock clubs in a vise and go to work on the head with a rubber mallet, but how do you measure accurately what you're doing?

Your best bet, Daz, would be to order one up ready made. Get them to hand-pick one that's 51 or 52 degrees, and 1 degree up (65° lie). Or if they don't hand pick (but do assemble), then they should bend it for you that way. Generally speaking, you buy the components, and assemble them yourself. However, lumlum has pointed out that bighitgolf.com seems to sell them assembled.

IF you've got your heart set on going with a 52, you need to know that whether you bend the 51 weak or the 53 strong, you'll have 7° of bounce. In other words, opening up this club from a tight lie is NOT recommended.

__________________
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

I was looking for the spec sheets everywhere. Thanks for the info. Sounds like the 51º will be perfect. It might be worth me getting a ready built wedge but as Slater has said there is a builder near me that will build the club with shaft and grip £20. not sure what that is in Candian dollars but i think its about 40. can't be bad.

hi mate
google made2measure golf
i had a 5i-sw set made apex tour heads (callaway copies) and its the best thing ive ever done!
after nearly 2 years i decided to get custom fitted. i met gareth at a driving range in stockport he had half a dozen 6irons with him he took WTF measurement, taped the faces up had me swinging over the speed monitor and hitting off a lie board after hitting a bucket of balls he had catalouges of heads shafts and grips and told me his recommendations
i had the clubs 5 days later and they were spot on gained a lot more distance but more importantly my accuracy improved dramatically
just one option

__________________
cheers slats
"Golf can best be defined as an endless series of tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle"

Cheers. got the details of made2measure golf. Might send them an email and get a quote. might find out about reshafting my current irons. bought them off the shelf but had the lie angle changed 1º upright. i'm 6'2" so i'm wondering if slightly longer shafts would suit me better anyway. Thanks again for the info

Hi Lowpost,

Thanks for your response, I think its from reading your posts here that I've decided on the Durometers. Do you recommend green or black inserts?

Maybe I sould go for the pre-assembled clubs, as it would clearly save some money and a lot of time. The problems I have with going this route is that the club builder at BigHit said he thinks that spines in steel shafts are undetectable and that he's broken his bender. I'm not too worried about finding the spines, as I can do this at the start of next season when I make a set of irons up. However, I think it is worth doing the lies as soon as possible. Is it possible to bend the clubs for lie with the shafts intact, and could I not go down the rubber mallet/vise route, if i can find an accurate way of measuring the lies before and after.

Would you say that the Durometer PW is better than the SMT 303MB PW?

One final thing, can you please explain what frequency matching (in reference to shafts) is and why you would do it?

Thanks again

Chris

I play the blacks, myself. I don't see the need for jarred hands on mishits.

ROFL! Undetectable? A spine may be difficult to differentiate from residual bend, yes. Have him FLO it instead. FLO is quite detectable. As for his broken bender - send him to www.mr3golfdesigns.com and tell him to buy a True Blue. I love mine. PS: Golfsmith tools are for hobbyists LOL

My bending machine actually needs the shaft in the clubhead to read the change. However, I could bend the heads to within 1° easily without the shafts. You could certainly go the vise route if you were in dire straits. However, if his bending machine is broken, I'd tell him to pick 'out of spec' heads, then. Or go to another dealer altogether. My bending machine works fine (but I've gotta ship it across the pond )

The only difference between the MB PW and the Duro PW is the insert. I've considered building a set, and I'd go with the Duro PW, myself.

Frequency matching is, simply, making sure all the shafts play to the same flex.

I just built a set of irons. I checked their raw frequency (no tip trim). I had shafts freqing at 283, and one at 297. That's a full flex difference. OK, at least I know. If I was to blindly follow manufacturer tip trimming instructions, when I used that 297 shaft, it would be stiffer than all the rest. Instead, I follow the slope, and put that shaft in where it belongs (it ended up in a SW).

Shafts that flex consistently help add consistency across your set. Shafts that bend consistently (have been FLO'ed or spined) help add ballstriking consistency across your set.

Shafts that have been installed in a factory have no necessary consistency.

Finally, expect to pay for things. Expect to pay for a shaft that's been spined/FLO'ed. Expect to pay for bending. Expect to pay for frequency matched shafts (although, without the actual heads and final build length specs, you really can't frequency match shafts, can you?)

__________________
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

Hi Lowpost,

His lack of bending equipment and his lack of interest in spine-finding/FLOing is what is what is making me want to buy the clubs unassembled, coupled with the fact that I like the idea of learning how to do it myself. I reckon the investment in basic tools (including the compressor, and DIY spinefinder) will almost pay itself back once I've built a complete bag of clubs (early mext year), plus I get to really customise as much as I want.

How dire is dire when it comes to adjusting the lies with the pikey screwdriver (mallet)? Will it damage the club heads or is it an issue of accuracy?

Going back to the frequency matching, is the reason you put the shaft that oscillated at 297Hz (do you measure in Hz?) in the SW that it has a high club head weight?

Would you want all your woods to be matched, all your irons to be matched and all the wedges too? Or do you want the entire bag to play to the same frequency? The reason I ask is that the shafts that come with the Durometers are Dynalite Golds which have a high trajectory - which I assume is fine for your wedges - however, I'm pretty tall (6'5") and I seem to hit the ball pretty high anyway so will probably go for low trajectory shafts for my irons when I build them, and ~I assume you can't frequency match accross different types of shaft. Finally, do Royal Precision Rifles come frequency matched already?

It is clear to me that I'm going to have to do a lot of reading, and that this site (and probably you lowpost) is going to bare the brunt of my questions?

Thanks again

Chris

John Kaufman sells a Frequency Analyser (Club Scout). It might be a worthwhile investment - especially if you buy his laser FLO jig. I place FLO more important than spine. And now you know why I own a compressor (clean grips? Fooey! Regrip! It's just so darn fast and easy!), a bending machine (I was missing everything left at the range. A couple degrees flat should solve that. Plus, that PW is too long. I'll just weaken it a bit, and my yardage gaps will be perfect.), a frequency analyser (Club Scout 2), as well as all the requisite power tools - belt sander, chop saw, drill press, wet tile saw, vise. You're headed down a dark, slippery road, Chris. Turn back now, while you're credit cards are still clear, and your wife still loves you (and can easily recognize your face!)

Well, like I said earlier, 1° off from 100 yards is a 22 foot miss. 2° is 44 feet - almost 15 yards. Most average sized greens are 30 yards by 30 yards (give or take). So a 2° error from ONLY 100 yards out is half a green. I'd say that you really need to get your lies as close to proper for you as possible. As for beating a clubhead with a mallet? It's a long process, but it won't hurt the clubhead. Now, reefing on it with a vise or pliers will certainly mark the metal.

The standard measurement for freq is CPM (cycles per minute). I believe 1 Hz is 60 CPM. But enough about physics. Yes, the stiffer shaft went in the SW, as the heavier club head meant that I didn't have to trim as much in order to get it to the proper flex.

That's quite a lot... I tend to group heads into woods and hybrids/irons/wedges. In other words, my wood shaft flexes are much different than my irons/hybrids/wedges; however, where I use the same shaft, I frequency match. (Save the 60°. I almost always put a softer flex in a 60°, because I don't use it for a full swing. But that's my own preference, and something I offer when I build clubs). As for high flight/low flight, it only matters if you have a late release. Otherwise, the shaft is all done bending by the time you get to impact (in other words, there's no more 'kick' by impact, so kickpoint and tip stiffness properties are moot). And while you can frequency match across different types of shaft, it doesn't mean you'll get the same results (ball flight, kick point, or even flex) in the different make of shafts. This is because when we build to a freq. slope, we're only measuring the butt frequency. So if we mix it up with both butt soft and butt stiff shafts, we'll end up with some shafts that seem much stiffer than others, but they may all play the same. Or they may freq similarily, but bend totally differently. Therefore, if you're going to freq match, only do it across the same shafts.

Yes, Rifles come frequency matched as long as you build to Rifle standard. Unfortunately, I don't know what Rifle standard is. (But this point of building to Rifle standard was driven home to me by a Rifle Certified clubmaker I know.)

I'm still not sure for myself whether a frequency match or a frequency slope is best to follow (where match means all butt frequencies are equal, and slope means they move by a uniform step). I currently build following the slope that the shafts show me. How it works is that I take two shafts that freq the same. I then trim one for the 'longest club' I'm building (we'll say 3 iron for the sake of an argument). I then trim the other for the shortest club (lets go with PW). Then I dry fit the heads at the weight they'll be (I shoot for a 7g step between heads, as this seems to be what most manufacturers are reportedly doing for spec, anyway); and freq the clubs. For arguments sake, lets say the 3 iron freq's at 300, and the PW freqs at 328. So, I the shafts look to follow a 4 CPM slope. So I'd build the 4 to 304, the 5 to 308, the 6 to 312 and so on.

If you're ordering components, the best thing to do is ask for things to be hand picked to whatever spec you need. Order heads to the loft and lie you need, order shafts to the weight you'd like, etc. (Unfortunately, you cannot order them to a specific CPM. At least, I don't know of anyone who does this).

__________________
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

Just out of interest lowpost how much do you think it would cost to setup a clubmaking workshop? equipment wise. give me both a cheap option and an ideal option.

Cheers.

If you just want to cut 'n' glue, Daz, it's not too expensive.

Hacksaw for cutting shafts
Sandpaper and utility knife for prepping the shaft tips
Vise for holding the shafts

The rest I consider necessary 'supplies'

Vise pads for holding the club in the vise
2" Masking tape (buildup tape for gripping)
2" 2 sided tape (for gripping)
Acetone (for cleaning shaft tips and hosels)
Q tips (for swabbing hosels)
Epoxy (buy the 'tour cure' or 'fast cure' stuff. 24 hour cure just takes too long)
Grip Solvent
Rags (for cleaning up)


The ideal option:

Air compressor for gripping
Chop saw/Wet Tile Saw for cutting shafts
Belt sander for prepping tips
Utility knife for prepping graphite shafts
Drill press and reaming vise for coning hosels
Vise
Freq. Machine or NF4
Bending Machine
Shaft puller (hydraulic is fast and easy)

Supplies:

Vise pads
2" Masking tape
Acetone
Q tips
Epoxy
Hosel brushes
Swingweighting supplies
Rattle stop
Liquid glass

I'm sure there's more in a well outfitted shop, but you can see the difference.

__________________
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.