Flat & Upright - effect on shot

I suppose you clubcrafters are the ones to best answer this question, but of course anybody should feel free to chip in.

Imagine ,as a reference point, a "standard golfer" who should be using standard length clubs with standard lies and hits these clubs perfectly straight.

What impact would it have, if he was to pick up a club with "flat" lies? Would the "wrong" lie result in a different shot path?

What if same golfer was to pick up "upright" lie clubs?

Would it cause a pull or a push? A draw or a fade? A hook or a slice even? Or would it merely cause bad shots due to bad contact (toe or heel up at impact) and have no other effect on the shot?

I suppose an elongated shaft would have the same effect as an upright lie (guessing that the longer shaft would result in a ball position further away from the body and thus a less steep shaft angle in order to have the hands at a natural position), and that a shorter shaft would be somewhat similar in consequence to a flat lie. Or is that incorrect?

What about other side-effects, like "luring" the golfer into standing too close to the ball, or too far away, resulting in off-whack swing-planes?

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme

The big caveat is that all other things stay equal - just the lie changes.

Upright balls pull, flat balls push.

Pure and simple.

Now, we can add all sorts of variables to this:

The golfer that merely adapts his swing to the clubs - either by manipulating his hands or knee flex or spine angle.

The other factors in lie angle too upright are the possibility for the heel to grab and close the face, making shots start on the pull side, and draw further. Flat would create pushes that slice as the toe digs and holds the face open.

As for standing too close/far, I don't think that would change, but your swing plane would (again, you'd change your setup to get your clubs slightly toe up, which would change your swing.)

__________________
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A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

hi
i got a set of ping zings2 about 8 months ago 2 degrees flat (orange dot) and i have been checked by ping and they said my set up was standred about 15 years ago (black dot) i was going to get the them set to black dot but thought i have a got at the range with them first. after only 10 minuets i found i was hiting the ball better and groppng the balls on the fairway closer, i had lost about 5/7 yards per club, but i did feel more comfortable over the ball too. i checked how the club was meeting the grass and it was level and not heal down as i thought it would be, had the pro do a board check and he said the tape was fine. i have not changed the angle of the clubs and feel better for having a flatter lie. did ask lowpost about it at time and he said to stay with them if everything was working good and it still is, thanks lowpost.
bill

The best way to see for yourself what happens, is to get a dart from an old dart gun, you know the little stick with the suction cup on the end. Stick that on the face of the club, then watch what happens with a square clubface soled correctly as you lift the handle (simulate being upright lie) then lower the handle (flat lie), you will readily see a big difference in the ball direction (where the stick points) even though the face remained square throughout. Which is why clubmakers view lie angle as such an important part, often overlooked.

Upright goes left (heel dig), and flat would go right (toe dig) with a square face at impact.

There are charts like ping uses, but to be brutaly honest they are useless, there is only one way to get the lie angle correct. Hit balls off a lie board, every single club, excluding woods, lie angle are to difficult to change, and have them bent to your swing from a qualified club fitter. It is the only way period!!! Plus you need to do it at least every other year, or yearly if you play allot, because hitting balls and the ground that many time will change it over time.

hi gonavy
i have had my 2 degree flat irons for about 8 months now i i realy love them, i do think i'm playing better and shapping the shots better too, even get a nice fade with the 8 and 9 irons, i found the backspin cut the fade on the 8 and 9 iron before, but now it bends like i want it too, do you think i was wrongly fitted before and it should of been 2 degrees flat, i am only 5"8 tall and stocky built,
thanks
bill

Probably, at 5'8" two degrees flat sounds about right. But as I said getting fitted is a must, how far you stand from the ball, posture, and how you swing will effect the lie angle you need, I hate seeing people trying to adapt to their clubs when adapting the clubs to the person is so much easier. A good club fitter will only charge a few dollars a club, well worth the money. If you find one that wants to have you just hit one club and determine all the lie angles from that, walk away. That is my only advise. Find a fiiter that does it correctly and checks every club. Off the rack clubs can, and usually do have, a +/- 2 degree in a given set, which means if he blanket changes all the lies off one club spec, you may still be off.

Brilliant post that makes a lot of sense, thanks!

Only one question: Wouldn't lowering the handle raise the toe and thus simulate upright lie while raising the handle raises the heel and simulates flat lie, not vice versa?

You've got it, Mox. Dropping the hands raises the toe, holding them high keeps the lie flatter.

But Gonavy is right - every single club should be lie checked. Not just one and "We'll bend 'em from there". Well, ok, one and bend the rest is a fine place to start, but for the final fitting, all should be done.

If you are referencing the lie of the club. As a clubmaker I reference it in the person, as in toe up, is a flat lie adjustment, sorry for the confusion, but you get the idea.

Basically if you increase the lie angle, (angle between the sole and shaft) you are said to flatten the lie. If you decrease this angle, you are making it upright.

So in your picture above, to make the right most picture to correctly be soled, I would make an upright adjustment, decrease the angle of sole to shaft.

One other thing I forgot to add, love your picture, but that only scratches the surface, the angle is actually much greater then that, you also have to consider the loft, it changes as well when the toe goes up, or the heel goes down, which makes these angle much more acute then depicted, and alters the spin placed on the ball, now we even see hooks and slices from a square clubface. LOL...isn't golf grand, makes you wonder how anybody can hit a ball anywhere near where they want it go..lol

hi
one other thing that the lie can do is make you stand closer or further away, also open or close your stance more. more open and you will swing a bit more flatter and feet closed more if the lie is more upright you will swing more upright.
will also make you stand taller if lie upright or bend more if flatter.
like gonavy said you need a pro to check what is best for you.
add to that every club changes in length and lie.
bill