What are the prime generators of swing speed?

Simpler Brian but not necessarily easier

I'm trying to combine King, 3SKS (insofar as they are compatible) and Mind Swings* and because I'm trying (which of course is contrary to Mind Swings) its not easy but (see my blog) I think its coming.



* ps it really is a book I think you'd appreciate with some different ideas.

I will look out for it Robin.

Simpler and easier IMHO

Most definately.

I hope it was clear that I was answering the question "what are the prime generators of swing speed?". For me it's arm and hand speed. But undoubtedly every part of the body has a role to play in creating speed, I agree.

He would still need to turn the hub so chest deep is a bit much.

He does say that it's X & Y but more Y.

Moe was a relative model. The power of the core x (arms+ hands) remain similar

The right arm in most right handed people is stronger and gives better feedback to the brain. Hogan wanted three of them for power.

Centrifugal force is a reactionary force to centripetal force therefore is not a real force. That is not contrary to Newton.

The body supports the arms and hands so needs sufficient strength to support the centripetal force created by them. A javelin thrower or a hammer thrower does not just build up their arms.


He is swinging the club fast with his arms and hands assisted and supported by his body.

I will Charles and tricky it is to be sure

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Best Regards
Brian

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Funny o'l game!

Amongst other errors, the analysis in the second "science" link is based mainly on the false premise that body parts are only moved by their own muscles. For instance, speed of the arm movement is exclusively credited to the triceps and the forearms. Not true. Stand erect with your arms hanging straight down and relaxed. Rotate your trunk and shoulder fast back and forth flailing your arms and hands past your rotation. Arm speed is faster than trunk speed yet the trunk is the only power source. This is the phenomenon is not fully accounted for in the analysis.

When discussing sources of power, consider the example of a tsunami. What is the SOURCE of the great speed and massive power of a tsunami? Is it the water crashing on the coastline that we see as the damage is being done? No, the SOURCE of the power is the relatively small movement of the ocean floor at the epicenter. The other elements of the system modify and deliver this power, but do not ADD any power. They are however, still essential in unleashing the speed and power from the true source.

The Iron Byron machine has no arm, shoulder, or hand "muscles" but produces great speed with only trunk rotation acting on a series of levers.

I am discounting the importance of the hands and arms, because I believe they do provide power, but real speed is dependent on the proper use of the lever system of the body and the club to deliver significant power from the core, IMO.

Also, there is no such thing as centrifugal force. There is centripetal force which causes a moving mass to deviate from it’s natural tendency to move in a straight line path and to instead move in a circular path about an axis. When this centripetal force is removed the object will not move perpendicularly away from the axis, opposite to the centripetal force. It will instead resume it’s natural straight line path, tangent to the circular path it was previously held on.

You are right he had the perfect swing to fit the model that Jack described, but I wonder if there would be a different model if a different pro was used (i.e. Tiger or one of the Long Drive pros).

Imagine all the tricept exercises this guy did to get a 135+mph swing:
http://www.sonicboomgolf.com/video/Movie.wmv

The problem I have with Jack's presentation of the centrifugal force is that he makes it seem like it does not exist and therefore it and anything related to it can be ignored.

Hmmm. I'm not convinced by this X factor stuff in terms of advice for the average man.

I'm going to venture a guess that the guy in the video can only bust a large one because he's built like a Gorilla. If he was my size, I'd hit it longer and straighter. It's interesting because the first of the improvement points he makes is to work on the technical aspects of the swing.

Scarily, I think this guy could be more powerful with some improvements in his technique, and definately more accurate. He may have a low handicap as he'd reduce most holes to a drive and pitch. If he can putt, then that's his game in a nut shell. Bomb and putt. If I was inclined to be the next Arnold Schwarzenegger, I may swing it in this fashion. But we're all interested in playing rounds of golf, are we not? Unless some of us are looking at entering a long drive championship where the target is 50 yards wide, every time?

My point is, only a small proportion of us are Mr Universe. I think he has to be Mr Universe to get the most our of this "X Factor". A lot of the tall and big tour pros (Ernie Els and Adam Scott being the most obvious) are big chaps and have a similar technique, but not to the extent of King Kong in that video. The tour pro's techniques are better, so they don't have to eat 4 chickens and 20 eggs a day.

If your 6'2" +, look like The Rock, and have great timing with your hands then this may well work for you.

I'm 5'11" and built like a garden cane, but I can still hit my 3 wood 5 yards behind the drivers of the teenagers at our club. With arm speed.

I guess both ways of looking at it are correct, dependant on the level of success one gets with either. Horses for courses, as it were. I'm just going by my own experience. As Monsieur Levac may say, what else have I to go by?

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Luke: I don't believe it!
Yoda: That is why you fail.

If I take something like a 12" rule in my hand I can generate tremendous speed with the rotation of my forearms and wrist without any movement of my hips/torso/shoulders, this speed can be amplified considerably by the added rotation of my upper arm. By adding the rotation of my hips and shoulders It is possible to add a little to the speed but nothing considerable. I would make clear that I am not suggesting that the hips and shoulders play no part, rather they are not prime generators of the required speed in a full swing.

The comparison of the human frame to a mechanical device is questionable, the joints of the wrist and shoulder are not capable of operating as a simple two or three lever model such as Iron Byron or those used in hypothetical models. The human joints are not simple rotational bearings, they can only replicate this rotation in a limited manner.

IMO the main task of the lower body is to support and stabilise the upper body in the golf swing, it also has to move in a manner that allows the arms to swing the club in an uninhibited manner by clearing the way for the swinging motion in both the back and downswing. In doing this an amount of rotary action in created that adds to around 20% of the forces required to propel the clubface at suitable speed in the full swing.

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

________________________________
Funny o'l game!

My point is:
Why use a 250yds swing model (Moe Norman) versus a 350yds swing model (Jason Krantz)when discussing swing speed?

It just doesn't make sense to me, because there is 100yds of SS being generated that is ignored by the Moe model.

If you want an accuracy model, then by all means use Moe because that was what he was known for.

If you want both in a model, then you will likely have to combine the two in some fashion.

I agree that Jason's technique could be improved for accuracy.

Charles,

The article was trying to show how clubhead's speed was generated in relation to the different body parts. The relationship will stay the same with Tiger, Jason or Moe.

The point in question is not whether Jason Kranz can hit a ball farther than Moe could, it is whether in either case the maximum generators of their speed are the arms and hands.

Since all other things are equal then the difference between them must be genetic. So the supreme being has given us our swing speed (the hands and arms we were born with) and we should just live with it.

I guess the question remains ... why do the pros slow their hands down near impact ... must be to put all their power into their wrist.

I'm done.

Charles

We can increase the strength in our arms and we can swing within our practiced ability to control them, quite independently of the supreme being.

The pros and anyone else for that matter don't purposely slow their hands through impact, angular momentum forces that on us. And yes the momentum is passed to our wrists, the shaft and then clubhead.

Apparently I am not done.

If the wrists pass the momentum TO the clubhead via the shaft, then where does this momentum come from that goes to our wrists?

From here Charles (Taken from Joe Dante's 4 magic moves) and more from the arms and shoulders. Nothing much from the hips.



Figs. 38A, 38B, 38C, 38D. COAM at work. In A, it is generated in the shoulders, where the rotation begins around the axis of the upper spine. In B, it is coming down the arms. In C, it has reached the hands; as they slow down slightly, it feeds into the club. In D, it has reached the club head, giving it the final burst of speed at impact.

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

________________________________
Funny o'l game!

Here is a different version. I agree not much from the hips, but then again I said that many posts ago.


Figs. 38A, 38B, 38C, 38D. COAM at work.

In A, AM is generated in the shoulders, where the rotation begins around the axis of the upper spine. (sweet we agree!)
In B and C, the shoulders continue to turn (shoulders still providing some torque - torque can be viewed as the rate of change of AM).
From B to C but mainly from C to D, the distance from clubhead to the point of rotation (upper spine) increases due to the passive (or active if you can) straightening of the wrists. The clubhead accelerates to catch up with the hands (the clubhead wants to form a straight line to upper spine through hands-arms-shoulders) and at the same time due to COAM the hands-arm-shoulders slow their rotation around the upper spine.

After D, the clubhead will slow because the transition period has ended and all parts would be moving at the same angular velocity (so long as the shoulder torque has stopped).

The closer to impact that the release of the wrists occur, the faster the swing speed.

So you put forth that the body-arms-hands slow down to accelerate the clubhead, while I say the body-arms-hands slow down because the clubhead accelerates.