What are the prime generators of swing speed?

I have given this subject some consideration recently and have read various articles relating to the use of the legs, hips, torso, shoulders, arms and hands as primary forces in creating swing speed.

There appears to be some differing opinion on which parts of the body are the prime generators. These articles put an interesting perspective on the subject:

http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/myth3.htm

http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/myth4.htm

http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/myth5.htm

http://www.scigolf.com/scigolf/myths/myth6.htm

There are some other articles of interest there (Including that lovely story about Moe Nolan).

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

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Funny o'l game!

Be careful what you read.

hi Brian
i think it depends on you type of swing, some types are all about shoulder turn and also use of the hand at impact and hips don't turn as much, i think this is good for the player that comes into the ball with the club face open and then square and then closed just past impact, its more swing around your fixed spine .
with the player that tries to play more club face square to square through impact then they seem to have more hip uses and more hip sway towards the target and they use there legs more in the swing too, there head stays in the same place but the lower spine slid a few inches to target.
i think it like the one plane golfer and the two plane golfer and you cant use bits of both swings as your game falls to bits.
good links to Brian
cheers
bill

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Thanks for the advice. OK, I have read it carefully now what do you think?

Thanks Bill. The guy has a point though, hips cannot move at more than around 2 MPH, it takes a lot more than that to get the clubhead moving at 100 mph. Most can swing their arms and wrists very fast, not many can swing them very fast under control though, I like the point that the body stabilises the swing.

Hey Bri,

I've read these articles a few times before. I think they're good.

The dog does wag the tail, but dogs don't make very good golfers . Plus, my arms are distinctly different to a dogs tail in that they are dashed with muscles, ligaments, tendons and joints along the length of them. Hence, I believe that if the true sense of creating a metaphor for the golf swing exists, the dogs tail is the club, the hands arms and shoulders are the rear quarter and hind legs, and the dogs mid-section is our core.

I'm sure I've stated before that I am an advocate of the body playing a supporting role with the arms and hands providing the speed. I'm still of that viewpoint.

In my swing, I swing the club around me using my hands and arms. I prepare to swing down by replanting weight to my left side because that's the direction in which I want momentum to build. My core simply supports the rest of the swing. The only way the core can attempt to give speed to the arms is by turning ahead of them in an effort to create some sort of whiplash effect. Queue an over-the-top back shoulder out at the ball, lag reducing lunge with a flip at the bottom, and you have 98% of golf swings we see all day every day around the world.

Since looking at my swing from the point of view of my arms producing the speed, I have been driving the ball extremely accurately and very far in the current cold conditions (around 275 yards). My iron play is better than it's ever been both in terms of accuracy and power and I'm finding the sweetspot on almost every hit (no exaggeration).

In my experience of having all manner of poor diseases in my swing over several years, I can categorically state (as I have proved it to myself) that ceremoniously dumping the notion that my core moves my arms for me is singly the best thing I have done for my swing in the last 6 months. And I'm pretty much a one-planer. I am even of the opinion now that reliance on the "core" of ones body for power is responsible for the majority of swing diseases plaguing us amateurs. If you want to hit it further, swing faster. Swing it faster by swinging your hands faster by moving your arms faster. The top (controllable) speed you can generate will be dictated by the strength of your arm muscles, and the strength of your core to support the speed your arm muscles can produce. And I'm not a big chap, so you don't need to be muscle-bound in order to create good speed through the ball. Just be aware that stronger would be better still.

The suggestion that my hips/trunk (at a top speed of 2 mph) provide speed to my arms and hands, well, now I laugh at myself for even thinking that was possible really. I'm sure there isn't a line in the well-known song that goes "The core bone's connected to the, club bone".

Just goes to show, if you read and hear BS enough, you start to believe it.

__________________
Luke: I don't believe it!
Yoda: That is why you fail.

Here is another view by Leslie King who was responsible for teaching and coaching many a good player:



"Here is a point about which I am adamant. THE LEFT HAND AND ARM IS NOT PROPELLED BY THE BODY AT ANY TIME IN THE SWING. or, putting it another way we don't turn the body in order to move the hand and arm.
The left hand and arm swings the club, and the body turns in order to assist this swing and promote arm leverage. IT IS VITAL TO UNDERSTAND THIS POINT.

The left hand and arm swings the club in the golf action. Body action must never hinder or worse still TAKE OVER, the role of the left hand and arm. The body turns in a controlled manner, not to move the left hand and arm ..... but to allow it to swing unrestricted in both the backswing and downswing. This is what I mean when I talk of the body "responding".

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

________________________________
Funny o'l game!

hi brian
yes I agree about the speed of the hips and that they move the slowest and the head of the club is moving fastest. i think its more in how you use the hips in both types of swing i spoke about, in the second type, i think the hips drive the swing and then the shoulders follow and the arms follow after that, it like a reflex to what has happened on the backswing, and the hips start the downswing and often start the downswing when the hands are still moving up on the back swing.
in the first type of swing i think its more the the like you posted your links about where the shoulders drive the swing and the hips follow, you i think will be in that grope where you will swing with shoulders and arms and not really give your hips much though or even your legs you let them work more in reflex to your shoulders arms and hand.
if I'm wrong about your swing please put me right about it as i have not seen you swing but only take it from what i have read in your posts.
cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag

As ever a very good post Neil.

As you may be aware I have worked on the 3 skills method for a little time now, I have found it difficult to completely let go of all swing thoughts but I have allowed myself to keep the components of my swing relative to what happens in the impact zone as the method teaches. This has created a much simpler swing that is "Rotary" in shape, somewhat in the style of Moe Norman with good arm extension throughout and hinging limited to the natural effects of the momentum. I am making the best ball contact ever and getting great ball flight. My main focus is keeping my core centered and rotating steadily, keeping my feet planted while rolling to the relative instep and making a powerfully controlled rotary swing of my arms and wrists. This method seems to have little to go wrong.

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

________________________________
Funny o'l game!

As Brian definitely, and others probably, know I've been, not completely unsuccessfully , trying to build a LK swing.

From my point of view though whether "the body moves to make room for the arms" or the "dog wags the tail" or the tail (as Neil points out) is a little different to what you might expect is largely a matter of individual teaching / learning perspective.

LK's method makes more intuitive, intellectual and physical sense to me than others I've read or been taught - that doesn't mean that is RIGHT other than to people who react to teaching like I do.

So I would naturally say that my hands and arms produce whatever speed I'm capable of, except that since I've been doing "LK" my body turn has increased, so who knows it could be the turn that creates the speed after all.

To be heretical though, who cares?

As an evangelist for "Mind Swings" (the best "mental" golf book out there - and out of print) I'm coming to the conclusion that we shouldn't worry too much about "how" rather we should let go and just "do".

More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that anyone who has ever hit it off the screws or pitched it close once probably knows all they need to know; its the questioning, teaching, analysis (and videos ) that messes us up.

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I firmly believe that we should try to experience all that life affords, except, perhaps, bestiality and of course Morris Dancing.

It seems we've come across the same thing by different methods.

Simple is definately the way forward. I've never been able to stand over a shot and just hit it until now. I've got a feeling that I strive for. I don't have any swing thoughts any more, I'm thankful to say. I practice swing until it feels right, then just let it go without delay. I've only been able to do this by being coached by a fantastic coach, a little study of my own, sh!t loads of practice, and learning about the tons of BS that surround this game.

I'm a little scared to say it, but I think I've found the swing that works for me and it produces fades, draws highs and lows when I want it too.

Just need a short game to match now and I'll be frightening the seniors at my club this summer!

But in summary (in relation to the OP) arm speed (with complimentary hand action) supported by a strong body is the chief factor in creating speed in the swing.

__________________
Luke: I don't believe it!
Yoda: That is why you fail.

Well said sir.

Getting out of ones own way, one may call it.

Myth 3:
Big muscles theory - I am on the fence ... put a long hitter up to his waist in cement and will probably still hit it a long way ... up to chest and he is unlikely to make the ladies tees. I don't think that the golf swing can be X or Y provides all the swing speed but more that X AND Y provide the sum of the swing speed.

Myth 4:
=> bigger the guy futher the hitter - don't need math to compare John Daly and Charles Howell III - it has also been shown that close to impact anything affecting the shaft will have almost no effect on the clubhead.
=> uses Moe to get the "dot" picture ... however Moe did not use a conventional swing by any stretch of the imagination ... he was known for accuracy not distance ... so Moe may have been limiting distance aspects of his swing in favour of accuracy
=> everything in the model presented is based on right arm action, but I have seen guys hit good distances with their right arm off the club entirely ... the right arm must have magically powers or can transmit fictive forces through the body and down the left arm.

Myth 5:
=> My favorite line:"Centrifugal force is a reaction force and therefore is not a real force." So f__k Neuton what does he know.
=> Forearm and tricept strength ... wow! What are these long drive guys doing getting strong abdominals, shoulders, legs and arms when all they need to work on is the forearms and RIGHT tricept!

Myth 6:
=> This actually makes some sense. See my comment on Myth 3.

Myth 7:
=> if this is true ... then how is this possible:
http://sonicboomgolf.com/images/Top-Backswing.JPG
taken from:
http://sonicboomgolf.com/BSU.php

In conclusion, believe what you want to believe (but watch out for truth its a tricky bugger).
Charles

Bloody difficult I find it though mate NOT TO FIDDLE when things go wrong rather than keeping calm and repeating what I know should work for me.

Robin,

That's kind of what I am getting at. There are many things put forward in golf tuition that causes much confusion to those looking to play better. The problem is that when someone hits one off the screws they crave to repeat it, that starts the search for the magic bullet and the elixir of swing. I have been there, contorting my hips, back, shoulders etc in the search of that distance and perfect ball flight. The route to real improvement seems to lay down a simpler path.