Handicapp changes for 2008

Ian Hancock · #1 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 01:59 PM

Hi everyone,

Looking at another thread made me think about the R&A Matchplay handicapp changes for this year, I assume you are all giving full difference now not 3/4 as before.

This is my beef:

I lost my Matchplay first round this year giving full handicapp, and felt a little robbed......................

What I don't understand is why I am giving shots on holes where I normally get a shot..........surely it would be better to give shots from stroke index 18 - 1 instead of vice versa.

Any thoughts.

Ian

BrianW · #2 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 02:39 PM

Hi Ian,

Surely the shots you give should be from the hardest hole to the easiest? The lower handicap player needs the benefit where its harder for him/her to score.

Ian Hancock · #3 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 02:48 PM

Hi Brian,

Quote "The lower handicap player needs the benefit where its harder for him/her to score".

This is my point, when I give 3 shots on SI 1 2 & 3 these are the holes I need a shot on, never mind giving one away, my food for thought would be give three shots on either 18, 17 & 16 or better still on the difference, i'll explain.........

say I am off 3 and you are off 8 then your shots will be on 4 5 6 7 and 8, not 1 2 3 because I need a shot on them.

what do you think...????

bdbl · #4 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Hancock

Hi everyone,

Looking at another thread made me think about the R&A Matchplay handicapp changes for this year, I assume you are all giving full difference now not 3/4 as before.

This is my beef:

I lost my Matchplay first round this year giving full handicapp, and felt a little robbed......................

What I don't understand is why I am giving shots on holes where I normally get a shot..........surely it would be better to give shots from stroke index 18 - 1 instead of vice versa.

Any thoughts.

Ian

The stats and studies all show that on full handicap the lower capper is still favoured to win the odds just aren't stacked as heavily against the high handicap player. The studies also highlight than when the low handicap player loses - and feels robbed

- its because on the day:

a) they didn't play to their handicap (sorry Ian

)
b) the high handicapper had a day in the sun
c) the handicap committee has been slow in cutting the high cap who is playing better than whatever

or a combination of all three.

Slats for instance (and we've discussed this by PM and he knows I'm not having a go) took 17 strokes off a 5 cap the other week but is playing to 5o or more better than that - not his fault but that of his commitee.

As for where you give them I think thats just the way the matchplay cookie crumbles, you get the shots where it matters on stroke play and stapleford so 2 outta 3 aint bad

Ian Hancock · #5 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 03:16 PM

My answer is (B) the high handicapper had a day in the sun.

He clearly needed a big hat 'amigo'.

But I'm not bitter.

Ian. lol

BrianW · #6 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Hancock

Hi Brian,

Quote "The lower handicap player needs the benefit where its harder for him/her to score".

This is my point, when I give 3 shots on SI 1 2 & 3 these are the holes I need a shot on, never mind giving one away, my food for thought would be give three shots on either 18, 17 & 16 or better still on the difference, i'll explain.........

say I am off 3 and you are off 8 then your shots will be on 4 5 6 7 and 8, not 1 2 3 because I need a shot on them.

what do you think...????

I think you are looking at this the wrong way round Ian. As the better player you play off scratch, the higher capper has stokes on the most difficult holes as he is not as good a player. To put it another way: You find index #1 difficult but it's more difficult for him.

Ian Hancock · #7 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 04:02 PM

The only time I think it is fair, is when one player is off scratch, because he doesn't get any shots when playing normally anyway.

However, your question "You find index #1 difficult but it's more difficult for him".

My last senario said me off 3 and you off 8, so you get 5 shots in matchplay on SI 1- 5.

Normally I get a shot too on 1 - 3

so we were on a level playing field on holes 1 - 3', now I'm giving that shot away on these three "but I should have a shot too" that is my point, these holes are hard for me too

.

Holes 1 - 3 used to be the same difficulty for both of us,

but now I have one shot less on each hole

, so it is not more difficult for him and never was because we both had shots.

Only I don't anymore........

Ian.

bdbl · #8 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Hancock

Holes 1 - 3 used to be the same difficulty for both of us,

but now I have one shot less on each hole

, so it is not more difficult for him and never was because we both had shots.

Only I don't anymore........

Ian.

Ah yes but I look at from the high handicappers point of view.

If you are off 3 and I'm off 18 then SI 1-3 are and always have been more difficult for me because I'm basically pants and you are far more capable of dealing with them than me.

BrianW · #9 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Hancock

The only time I think it is fair, is when one player is off scratch, because he doesn't get any shots when playing normally anyway.

However, your question "You find index #1 difficult but it's more difficult for him".

My last senario said me off 3 and you off 8, so you get 5 shots in matchplay on SI 1- 5.

Normally I get a shot too on 1 - 3

so we were on a level playing field on holes 1 - 3', now I'm giving that shot away on these three "but I should have a shot too" that is my point, these holes are hard for me too

.

Holes 1 - 3 used to be the same difficulty for both of us,

but now I have one shot less on each hole

, so it is not more difficult for him and never was because we both had shots.

Only I don't anymore........

Ian.

No, No No Ian

Index 1 to 3 will always be harder for the higher handicapper than you, he is not such a good golfer.

Lets say that you are a scratch golfer and you play a 28 handicap golfer. He gets two shots on index 1 to 10. Could it be fair that he did not get his two shots on the hardest holes

Ian Hancock · #10 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 04:37 PM

Could it be fair that i did not get my three shots on the hardest holes??

but instead I have to give other players shots on my hardest holes.

So a 14 H/capp gives a 28 h/capp a extra shot on the 14 holes he needs a shot himself.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have drawn a line under this devils advocate game.

The R&A have changed the rules and I am fed up with playing higher h/cappers who haven't played that well in ages...................

Ian.

bdbl · #11 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 04:54 PM

Ian

You'll probably sympathise with this little rant then.

"Who you calling a cheat?

When isa 28 handicapper not a 28 handicapper?

When he bloody nails a par-5 green in two, when he goes two shots on a 155-yard par 3... and promptly pars it for the net hole in one! And when he beats your own very respectable net of 71 off an 18 handicap with a net 63... and murmered: "It's been weeks since I broke 90!"

Now don't you dare get me wrong. The handicap system is great. It unites all levels of golfer and allows the good to have a decent match with the bad... and the ugly, come to that. And when you see a 'proper' beginner nobble it off the tee, shank it out of a bunker and generally flail their way around a course, you have no qualms about giving them a ridiculous amount of shots. Hell... I'd let some of that have 36 shots and play off the reds if they were prepared to don a dress and whack on some lipstick!

It's the golfers who know - really KNOW - that they are better than the handicap they state; they are the ones who deserve to be putter-whipped naked in front of the clubhouse.

It's cheating. Pure, plain and simple. And, it's not always the maximum handicappers who are the worst culprits. It's the '14' handicapper who shoots two over par and then says: "Well, I used to play off two, but I haven't played that much since Christmas! Really?! What a suprise. They've probably been too busy spending all their winnings, gleaned from gullible mates who hand over the Sunday fiver every flaming week!

Let's unite against the evil plague creeping through this great game. Next time you come accrossa bandit, do at least one of the following:

a) Add a shot to every hole on his card.
b) Hand his scorecard in, send it to the English Golf Union, send it to the Queen.
c) Put a poster on the club noticeboard proclaiming: "I hereby decree that Mr X (insert name) is a cheating, lowlife, scumbag, puss-sucking peasant. He will play off 26 the next time he tees off!

There. That't sort it."

Extracted from "Angry Golfer's" Blog in Todays Golfer

http://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/Golf/N.../?&R=EPI-22306

ogallalabob · #12 (**permalink**) 06-23-2008, 06:51 PM

I always think the fairest way is to give the strokes on the hardest holes. In your case giving 5 shots, it should be 1,2 ...5. If the lower handicapper is favored to win by a stroke it is going to be on the tougher holes. To have to play those holes even up would be a decided advantage on those 3 holes to the lower handicapper. (of course this balances out in that higher handicapper just has to tie on easier holes to win)

Though I really think that the major problem is that the Handicap system is designed to equalize players for 18 holes, not hole by hole. In reality a 8 handicapper is only fractionally worse then a 3 handicapper on each individual hole of about .277 strokes. So to give a full shot on a hole is going to be a huge disadvantage on that hole no matter which holes are choosen, while to play even with him is only be a slight advantage on the other holes.

Ian Hancock · #13 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 09:53 AM

Both good points,

By the way that is the guy I played, all I kept saying to myself "your not suppose to do that" your a high handicapper.

'Quote' Though I really think that the major problem is that the Handicap system is designed to equalize players for 18 holes, not hole by hole. In reality a 8 handicapper is only fractionally worse then a 3 handicapper on each individual hole of about .277 strokes. So to give a full shot on a hole is going to be a huge disadvantage on that hole no matter which holes are choosen, while to play even with him is only be a slight advantage on the other holes.

At least someone is with me on this, I would prefer to give shots on the easiest or easier holes and win the tough holes.

Perhaps everyone should play off scratch and put more effort into there game, are there any other sports that have this type of system????????????????????????????????

Ian.

BrianW · #14 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Hancock

Both good points,

By the way that is the guy I played, all I kept saying to myself "your not suppose to do that" your a high handicapper. Regarding "effort" some players put tremendous effort into their games but are not as talented as others.

'Quote' Though I really think that the major problem is that the Handicap system is designed to equalize players for 18 holes, not hole by hole. In reality a 8 handicapper is only fractionally worse then a 3 handicapper on each individual hole of about .277 strokes. So to give a full shot on a hole is going to be a huge disadvantage on that hole no matter which holes are choosen, while to play even with him is only be a slight advantage on the other holes.

At least someone is with me on this, I would prefer to give shots on the easiest or easier holes and win the tough holes.

Perhaps everyone should play off scratch and put more effort into there game, are there any other sports that have this type of system????????????????????????????????

Ian.

Ian,

Other sports do not normally have players of differing abilities playing competitively, they tend to be divided into different leagues, like in football, rugby, squash, tennis etc. I don't think that could work well in golf due to availability of the course.

I am sure you would not feel happy pitched against a player with a plus 2 handicap where you had to both play off scratch. I know I would get little satisfaction annihilating a 28 handicapper where we both played off scratch in a matchplay competition.

I am sure the R&A and USPGA considered this carefully and came to the conclusion that it was fair.

ogallalabob · #15 (**permalink**) 06-24-2008, 10:31 PM

kept saying to myself "your not suppose to do that" your a high handicapper.

Who else besides Ian considers a 8 handicap a "high handicapper"? Just curious.

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