nine shots in golf

Ok, let me get this straight, what they saying is IF, I want the ball to go straight down the fairway (split the FW) then fade right to the right side of fairway I would have the face pointed straight down the fairway and then swing outside to in, basically fairway is a clock face where straight is 12 o'clock, I swing from 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock and have my face at 12 o'clock, is that right.


Because let me tell you what WILL happen in the above scenario, the ball will end in the center of fairway, it start out left then curve right towards the center, because that is where the path is going. That is what I believe and do often.

In the general sense, yes, that's what you would do.

Now, they (we?) are not saying that path is totally irrelevant. We're saying that FA is the dominant trait. So to align your example, your face would have to be a little to the 9 o'clock side (let's say 11:30) with a path that goes from 4 to 10. This would create a ball that starts going at around 10:45ish, and fade back towards the 3 o'clock side - as you've still got an outside-in path relative to the face.

Now - I have a nasty, nasty habit of choking the face open - almost 30° open. When I do this, I usually have great path - maybe a little outside in if anything (as is my usual problem thanks to a small cast). However, the ball flight is immediately to the right side, with more right added to it.

Maybe the next time you're at the range, try it out - hold the face open, but swing as down the line or even outside in as you can - the ball will be hard-pressed to follow the path.

__________________
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

I already told you, for the above example, that is exactly how I hit to the center of the fairway, I swing from 4 - 10 o'clock with the face at 12 o'clock, and the ball starts left towards 10 o'clock everytime and ends up in the center at 12 o'clock. Which is why I say that this FA is more influence then SP is garbage. I have always set my SP to my initial direction and my FA to what I want it to end at, fade or draw. So going to have to deagree with you on this Lowpost, I think you have convinced yourself of this and making your swing make this happen. But even if this is true, I am certainly not going to change my swing or setup over this, I can work the ball just fine, if I set up the way this article suggest, I could pretty much forget about ever hitting a green in regulation again.

You know reading these posts it just occured to me, you and the site are talking about some pretty extreme face angle, you even said sometime your face is 30 degrees open, that is a hell of allot. I suppose we may both be right. We are talking spin rates vs forward force here, which ever is higher controls the initial direction. In bunker and flop shots, I admit the ball tends to fly in the direction of face angle, however my speed of swing is much slower, and the face angle are extreme open, in these cases I suppose the open face force spins the ball more then the forward force. When fading and drawing shots my face angles are only 5 or 10 degrees at the most, in these cases the forward force clearly is much greater then the spin rates imparted on the ball from face angle.

Not to insult you Lowpost, but you indicate you are a 24 handicap, in my expirence most high handicap players tend to overdue everything, which is probably why you are seeing the results you do, your swing path is way too open or closed and the face angles are way to open or closed. Do you understand what I am saying, basically both views maybe correct.

If FA really did control initial direction always, then why would every body all these years setup the way I do for draws and fades and have them work, are we all making the same compesating moves, doubtful...are we all suffering from the same illusion, also doubtful...

No insult taken. I'm learning that there is a greater difference between knowing and doing than I've ever previously paid attention to. I'm also learning that club selection and course management are gigantic factors in scoring well (in other words, 'hit it as close to the hole as you can' isn't necessarily a good plan for all holes).

Now, the other interesting thing from Dave's articles is that we're discussing small degrees of seperation here - obviously my sh4nk with a choked-open face (which always happens when I try to 'rip' it) becomes an extreme deviation in degrees of seperation from face angle to swing path (when I choke it, I choke it good. Too much baseball as a kid!).

But for your gentle fade, I would suggest that it may be less than 15 degrees of seperation between face angle and swing path. If the clock were truly accurate, we're talking about 60° between 10 and 12 o'clock. With Dave's Generous 80/20 split, your start angle should be 12° to the 9 o'clock side (given that SP governs 20% of directional control). Not really knowing the physics of the spin (probably due to sleeping through too many physics classes), I can't hazard a guess as to how much cut spin will be on the ball with a 60° difference.

But I can assume that being a more accomplished golfer with a more complete and repeatable swing, you're also closing the clubface (somewhat) through impact rather than blocking through - so decreasing the amount of cut spin while increasing the lateral start angle (away from 12 o'clock).

Don't get me wrong - I've heard the same instruction that you line your feet up where you want the ball to start, and aim the face (ie low hand) where you want the ball to finish. And it works - I've seen it plenty of times, and have even accomplished it a few times as well.

In fact, in the past, I've sided with your opinion about ballistic force (swing path) being the initial governing factor of shot direction (I was having these drives where they'd start out straight for 50 yards, than snap 90° right and head OB - 200 yards away). Now, those shots are still a strange phenomena, and not explained by FA (unless I had an extreme out to in SP and square or slightly open to target FA, causing massive cut spin).

But when fellows like DaveT, Dana Upshaw, and Tom Wishon (via Matt Mohi) mention that face angle rules the roost, I'm tempted to believe them when I cannot scientifically conclude for myself what is true.

As it stands, GoNavy, I'm am happy to agree to disagree.

__________________
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

Also you have to remember is how the ball is compressed on impact.The reason pros when they drive the ball,get the initial low flight rising to that huge carry.Is because they hit the ball up the back side.The ball compresses into a flat shape,The energy of the ball reshaping itself gives it its flight shape and distant.Thats why a 100 compression ball will get you more distance than a 90 one.Thats if you are strong enough to compress the 100 one.
The grooves on the club face are for holding the ball on the club face not for the ball to run up the grooves.Thats why on the old woods with grooves ,you got more spin on the ball be it slice spin or whatever,compared to the metal woods of today.

Thats my idea of things not stating fact.

I know what you may say,what about spin on a small chip,well thats a different ball game.

Grooves vs no grooves and the amount of spin grooves generate (or don't) is a whole other ball of wax.

However, the guy who makes grooveless drivers for a living has stated time and again that while you get less spin from no grooves (in a scientific model), it's not enough to notice from a playability standpoint.

Well maybe we should ask Nick Faldo who used a 3 persimmon wood *in winning one of his Masters.I believe he said it gave him more control of the ball flight,than a metal wood.

* it would most definitely had grooves.

Regarding shaping a shot:

I was taught to shape a shot this way(and it works), aim your feet in the direction you wish the initial ball flight to take, aim the clubface in the direction you wish the ball flight to end. So: for a draw, aim your feet right of target, aim the clubface at the target, hit down the line of your feet, the ball will take off right and the clockwise side-spin created will pull the ball gradually back left. The same principal can be used for other shaping, the more the clubface is opened or closed the more severe the side-spin and bend.

I can also create a draw by hitting in to out and in effect allowing the toe of the face to roll around the ball at impact, what's not good is applying both of these methods together, if you do it will be a walk in the woods.

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

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Funny o'l game!

Yep. That's what I regurgitated. Grooves equal more spin. But not enough to make any difference from a clean lie. Grooves certainly make more difference from a bad lie (ie no fairway) as they channel dirt, grass and debris away from the middle.

I'm not saying that no grooves is best - just that they don't do what a lot of people think they do.

I cannot argue - this method works. I've seen it work.

But don't be fooled into thinking that the ball is starting down your toe line. The ball is still starting on the draw side of your toe/heel line, the face is still closed relative to the path (draw spin) and square to target. So, since path has a small influence, we only get slight movement to the right of the target line at the start if you've closed the face relative to the target line at impact, otherwise it's still kind of open to target (but closed to path), and we get a ball that starts right, but ends up moving left.

But face angle will always dominate which part of the path the ball starts on.

Someone said a putter shows you well. Someone argued that you only swing the putter 3 mph.

So buy a cheap putter from the throwaway bin, put an iron grip on it, and swing. Or hammer putts as hard as you care. You'll see that face angle wins, every time. (I've got the dented garage door to prove it.)

Or if you don't like that idea, use your 7 iron. Choke the face wide open. Hood it closed. Swing as deliberately as you like down your chosen path. Face angle wins.

I'll try and get some video when the snow melts (I don't think my garage door can take much more).

__________________
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

hi brian
i set up for a fade with my feet,hips and shoulders open say about 35 degrees and i set the club face open about 15 degrees and i vary the angle of the clubface at address to vary the amount the ball turns in the air, so with say a 5 iron i would carry the ball about 160yds and have 10/15 run and the ball would turn about 15 to 20 feet in the air, if i wanted less turn i would move club head towards the target more at address.
i find it harder to control a draw this way when i play a draw and find i have to aim club face at target and only close my feet and hips a few dregees but dont have the same control as to how much the ball draws, all i know is the ball will come in from the right but not by how much where i do know and control how much it moves with a fade.
gonavy do you always set the clubface up aimed at target or do you vary it to control the amout of side spin and the amount the ball fades. i think we set up the same same way and i do hit the fairway most times.
bill

And my personal favourite:
Foozle

Never been able to figure out what kind of shot that is...

Hi Bill

I use this method to shape shots, not only a draw. It is a useful way to bend the ball around a tree for example.

Feet in starting direction, clubface in end direction. just think of pointing the clubface at the target and your body in the direction the ball takes off, then hit in the start direction. It takes some practice to understand the ball flight and is best practiced at the range.

hi brian
yes i agree with you the range is best place to play about with this shot to see how much you have to be open to fade the amount you want, once you know then a fade is an easy shot to play. brian do you tend to control how much you fade much better than you do a draw?
bill