Swing path vs face angle - another take

I just finished reading a post over at the Wishon forum. A fellow was reading Tom's book 'The search for the perfect golf club'; and was asking why a club with 11° of loft launches at 9.6° (with a level angle of attack, no shaft bending, and no vertical roll on the face - in other words, a true 11° face with a 9.6° launch).

There were a couple of 'best guesses' over there - but it occured to me that the reason was that face angle (or loft) is the larger determinant of direction over path (or angle of attack). Now, it makes perfect sense.





Another thought that occured to me today as I found more than my fair share of bunkers today (for some reason). How do we play a bunker shot? We crank the face wide open, open our stance, then swing down the body line. The ball comes out a bit inside of where the face was pointed. It doesn't come out like a pull and cut back to the target, right? It simply heads to the inside of the target (a bit), lands and bounces towards the target (cut spin).




There are two 'full speed' arguments in favour of face angle being greater than path for determining initial direction.

I've even tried it in the backyard with a putter and a full swing (no, not my gamer). I even busted out the swing speed radar (a 48mph swing with a putter is pretty good, I'd say!) I'd shut the face hard, and swing down the line. Ball goes pull side. I'd open it up and swing down the line. Ball goes push side. Aim square, and swing out to in. Ball goes pull side (but stays closer to the centerline than the closed face ball). Square aim, inside out swing, ball pushes (but not nearly as far as the open face ball).


This is going to come across as arrogant (please don't take it that way), but can someone argue this again? I'm sure that I'm right, but I want to solve the arguments against, beyond 'this is how I've swung for years, and it always works'.

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Cant really argue with that LP. The direction the ball starts off on depends more on where the clubface is pointing than the direction of the swing. The actual angle will be between the two but nearer the clubface direction.

I don't know what is going on here, but I posted something in this thread earlier today and now it is gone.

LP - go check out Dave Tutelman's website. Let me know if you need a link to it.

Here is the stuff I put up, which vanished then GTO vanished .... hope it is not me.

Here is a link to Dave's site:
http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/DesignNotes/index.php

LP - he talks about what you noticed in the "direction of the ball" section:
http://www.tutelman.com/golfclubs/De...hp?ref=#launch
the pic just before the "Spin" section really cleared this up for me.

Charles

Thanks for those links, Charles.

It just further emphasizes to me that path is the lesser of the two.

I've gotta say, it's nice to have some backup on this one - both the theology by Dave T as well as some real world examples that I've conducted.

This only takes into account the initial launch conditions. Once the ball is launched other things then become important.

The clubhead path, face angle, and center of gravity of the ball in relation to the CoG of the clubhead at impact will all combine to generate both backspin and more important to the lateral displacement - sidespin.

I am still learning and thinking about how these spins are generated.

Whilst it makes sense to me that face angle probably plays a greater part than clubhead path, the friction aspect in terms of the spin rate must logically also play some part as well.

Three times yesterday (in almost ideal conditions, with no prevailing breeze to speak of) I hit my 7 iron 20m further than I previously had thought possible. Either the course distance markers were wrong, or, I didn't hit the ball "normally". Maybe I caught the ball skinny, but, I didn't get that familiar jarring feel that I would normally associate with a thinned shot.

Beats me...........

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