Wedges...

LowPost42 · #16 (**permalink**) 05-09-2007, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianW

This is LP's job so I guess he knows how it works. Here is a picture showing how loft is measured and it looks like the angle is measured from the vertical shaft to the face.

http://echo.leaderboard.com/loftangl.gif
http://echo.leaderboard.com/loftangl.gif
EDIT: Well there was a picture here?

There's no pictures where you linked to, Brian.

It's not my job, just my passion. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I can pursue it aggressively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldog2k

Is there a similar home-spun way to measure bounce, Lowpost?

Yes, there is. However, all 'home spun' stuff is just to give you an idea. Scrags should get close by throwing the shaft on the wall. Obviously the best bet is to buy a good gauge.

That said...

Get the loft on your current wedge. Use the ghetto method if necessary.

Now, take the wedge and lay the face flat on the table (shaft is pointing to the ground. Set the protractor on the table, and measure to the middle of the sole, in the middle of the club. Some wedges have 'heel relief', so you'll find less bounce there, and more towards the toe. It's tough to find the middle of the sole - so you'll probably be out a degree or two. Anyway, measure to the middle of the sole and get the loft number - it should be smaller than the loft of the face (indicating bounce sole, as opposed to scoop sole). Do the math (subtract face from sole) and that's your bounce.

BrianW · #17 (**permalink**) 05-09-2007, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowPost42

There's no pictures where you linked to, Brian.

It's not my job, just my passion. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I can pursue it aggressively.

Posted a pic but it must have been a link.. Just tried another.

Sorry Ben, thought it was your job. Anyway you are our site expert and give great advice

bdbl · #18 (**permalink**) 05-09-2007, 03:25 PM

If you are a member of a club (I'm not) and on good terms with your pro (if not why not?) you could always just buy him a beer and get the lofts checked out as a favour.

Me, I'm off to mug a junior school kid and nick their protractor.

Carrying on the DIY theme is it possible to check the lie yourself?

Presumably you can buy a board and tape (on Ebay?) but is there a table that translates impact points either side of the sweet spot (where ever that may be) into degrees flat or upright?

I'd pay to get the lies adjusted but I'd rather not have some 17 year old punk playing off a very low number smirking as I topped, thicked and shanked my way through the fitting down at the discount store.

LowPost42 · #19 (**permalink**) 05-09-2007, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdbl

Carrying on the DIY theme is it possible to check the lie yourself?

Presumably you can buy a board and tape (on Ebay?) but is there a table that translates impact points either side of the sweet spot (where ever that may be) into degrees flat or upright?

I'd pay to get the lies adjusted but I'd rather not have some 17 year old punk playing off a very low number smirking as I topped, thicked and shanked my way through the fitting down at the discount store.

Same way as the loft check, but you have to ensure that the club is soled properly (ie in the middle of the head). Then you try to eyeball the protractor to the middle of the shaft/hosel for your lie angle. Much, much tougher to DIY.

However, a piece of plywood and some electrical tape on the sole will show you where you're making contact on an iron. Every 1/4" away from the middle means 1° that needs to be adjusted.

bdbl · #20 (**permalink**) 05-09-2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowPost42

However, a piece of plywood and some electrical tape on the sole will show you where you're making contact on an iron. Every 1/4" away from the middle means 1° that needs to be adjusted.

Thanks, that's what I was looking for, so 1/4" to heel means 1° flat (my guess) ? or the other way? Is this standard, relative to your starting point, regardless of shaft length? If I remember and interpret Mr Hashimoto correctly changing the length should change the lie, yes? Shorter = flatter?

Or to cut a long story short, seeing as I often hit heel side of centre then changing my lie might help?

LowPost42 · #21 (**permalink**) 05-09-2007, 09:07 PM

1/4" heel side means bend flatter (or shorten 1/2"). 1/4" toe side means bend upright (or lengthen 1/2").

Now, all that said, I'm also a believer in True Length Technology, and build my sets to those specs. In other words, set your lies to a standard progression (I like a 64° PW, and work up in 1° increments back towards the longest iron).

GoNavy · #22 (**permalink**) 05-09-2007, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowPost42

What? How in the world can you even think to possibly compare lofts if you have to be accounting for shaft lean? My friend, I don't think you're correct here for the purpose of measuring a golf club. I haven't seen a gauge where the shaft is oriented anywhere but vertical or horizontal.

Yes, the head needs to be soled properly, but every gauge I've ever seen holds the shaft vertical and allows the head to sole from there.

It's by leaning the shaft forward or back that you change the effective loft for your shot. For spec'ing a club, you need a constant - and this constant is a straight shaft. Otherwise, it could be said that every club is 40° - just lean the shaft more or less to get there.

Now I know you're crazy. All wedges have the same loft? Please tell me you're mistaking loft for some other spec - like lie perhaps? I could see all wedges having the same lie because they're all the same length - that makes sense.

GoNavy, here is the equipment I have in my shop.

The MR3 True Blue. MR3 Golf Designs
When a club is in this device and neither strong nor weak lofted, the club is vertical (as in the pictures).

The Auditor 3D ruler. myOstrich Golf Clubmakers
Again, the shaft is laid horizontally, the loft and lie is measured with a protractor.

The Auditor Loft and Lie Gauge. GolfMechanix,The leading manufacturer of golf club making tools, golf tools, instrumentation and gauges.
Here we have a vertically oriented shaft. Once secure and soled, all measurements are made with the shaft vertical.

The 'Green Machine' GolfMechanix,The leading manufacturer of golf club making tools, golf tools, instrumentation and gauges.
This is not in my shop. But it is in Tom Wishon's shop - and used for his hand select service. Apparently this is 'the' machine for bigger outfits to have. But still, shaft is up and down in regards to loft.

All loft surveying equipment I have supports a vertical (or horizontal). There is no shaft lean. Now, adjusting the face angle will alter the loft (face pointing left or right). Closed decreases loft, open increases it (and the opposite is the effect at impact if square. In other words a 9° head 1° open will be 8° square, 1° closed will be 10° square).

So scrags, lean the shaft on the wall, perpendicular to the floor, ensure the face is square, and measure away.

Yes I know, we are comparing apples and oranges here. The point I was making is the angle is measured off the shaft with a loft gauge, doesn't matter if the shaft is vertical or horizontal, or anything in between. The question was if using a standard protractor and measuring with a vertical shaft, I didn't want the poster to try and do a measure from the surface thinking the shaft has to be vertical because you end up with wildly screwed measurement, ie too much loft because clubs when soled properly do have a lean to them and the sole needs to be accounted for, ie bouce. Even brians picture shows the angle as compared to the shaft, it being vertical is just for convience. Just trying to point out, it is not really a DIY job for the novice, you can't just start bending and only concern yourself with the loft.

GoNavy · #23 (**permalink**) 05-09-2007, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowPost42

Now I know you're crazy. All wedges have the same loft? Please tell me you're mistaking loft for some other spec - like lie perhaps? I could see all wedges having the same lie because they're all the same length - that makes sense.

.

I meant to say all wedges like PW from different compamies etc... have the same loft, or a standard, didn't mean all wedges PW/LW/GW have the same loft, could have put that better, sorry, I'm getting old I lose my train of thought sometimes and leave things out..lol

But as I read the thread I got the impression that he might take a protractor and try to measure the face with a vertical shaft off the ground if you understand what I am saying, and it would be incorrect, it would correct itself if you leaned the shaft correctly and soled the club, providing there is no bounce.

Sumosid · #24 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 12:22 AM

Shaft lean?! Give me a 8 Iron and I'll get it there.... Ball back instance steep down swing, n nail it...

Scragger63 · #25 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 12:57 AM

Wow..!! Hasn't this innocuous little thread gotten long...

It makes sense to me that when attempting to measure the loft angle of a club face that there needs to be a standard refernce point to measure the angle of the face from, and that point logically should be the shaft. Seems to me it doesn't matter what angle the shaft is on, the face will always be the same angle away from it...

The point of my post was I am experiencing difficulty when around 90m- 100m away from my target and the 2 clubs I have see me comfortably 10m - 20m either side.

I was interested to know the loft angles and how to measure them because I wanted to find/buy one somewhere's in the middle. There seemed no point asking for a 55° wedge if my SI is already 55°. My gut feel is that it is actually 60°. So, given my PW (according to its manufacturer) is spec'd at 47° (Yes, LP, I know, it might be 46° or 48°

) and if the SI is 60° then no wonder I have a 20m - 40m gap and troubles finding a 100m target...

Thanks to all who have posted here, this has become an interesting topic for me...

Cheers

LowPost42 · #26 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNavy

Yes I know, we are comparing apples and oranges here. The point I was making is the angle is measured off the shaft with a loft gauge, doesn't matter if the shaft is vertical or horizontal, or anything in between. The question was if using a standard protractor and measuring with a vertical shaft, I didn't want the poster to try and do a measure from the surface thinking the shaft has to be vertical because you end up with wildly screwed measurement, ie too much loft because clubs when soled properly do have a lean to them and the sole needs to be accounted for, ie bouce. Even brians picture shows the angle as compared to the shaft, it being vertical is just for convience. Just trying to point out, it is not really a DIY job for the novice, you can't just start bending and only concern yourself with the loft.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoNavy

I meant to say all wedges like PW from different compamies etc... have the same loft, or a standard, didn't mean all wedges PW/LW/GW have the same loft, could have put that better, sorry, I'm getting old I lose my train of thought sometimes and leave things out..lol

But as I read the thread I got the impression that he might take a protractor and try to measure the face with a vertical shaft off the ground if you understand what I am saying, and it would be incorrect, it would correct itself if you leaned the shaft correctly and soled the club, providing there is no bounce.

OK! Now I see what you're getting at, I think - someone who has effectively taped the shaft to the wall so that more or less only the toe is contacting the ground? If so, I agree that we need to have the middle of the sole being the contact point. As for standard loft on a wedge, I'd say that there's a standard range (from 46-49°), but that, like anything else in the golf industry, there's truly no standard.

bill reed · #27 (**permalink**) 05-10-2007, 02:47 PM

hi GoNavy
i have to agree with scragger in that the shaft it always the refrence point when measuring the loft off a club and the loft and shaft are always fixed no matter if shaft pointing up or layed down flat. all types of measring equipment i have seen always measure the loft against the shaft.
as to all companys being the same as ref to wedges i do think there are a big diffrence in the type of groves, ie "V" and "U" groves and now a new type that used both, also the new milled type face that has many fines groves that have diffrent shaped cuts depending on maker.
i have tried 4 diffrent p/wedges from top makers and all play diffrent and i think it comes down too what feels best fot you.
bill

jamesh · #28 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 06:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowPost42

Well, you know what's about to follow this sentence...

By going to the PING website, you learned that your PW should be 47°. It may be 46. It may be 48. It may be even further out of spec. Not knowing what your SW is, it's time to get the lofts checked. Then buy (or have something built) that splits the gap. Even if you grab a wedge out of the bargain bin, it needs to be 'loft verified'.

Interesting LP. My club selection is pretty normal regarding disance - except for my wedges - with my sw I can easily hit the ball 120 yards - and the distances I am getting with my wedges doesn't always correspond to their loft. I noticed some of my SW are longer than others and this may account for the difference in distance. A friend of mine, we are pretty equaly in club selection - except for the wedges. For his SW he maxes out at 80 yards - which I find extraordinary.

James

BrianW · #29 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesh

Interesting LP. My club selection is pretty normal regarding disance - except for my wedges - with my sw I can easily hit the ball 120 yards - and the distances I am getting with my wedges doesn't always correspond to their loft. I noticed some of my SW are longer than others and this may account for the difference in distance. A friend of mine, we are pretty equaly in club selection - except for the wedges. For his SW he maxes out at 80 yards - which I find extraordinary.

James

80 Yards, that sounds OK to me. I would suggest your distance is extraordinary.

If you are hitting a sand wedge 120 yards then you must be delofting it, not using the club the way it was designed. You will be getting a low ball flight that does not check on landing and you are probably swinging much harder than needed with a loss of accuracy. 120 yards would be a 9 iron for most mortals.

bulldog2k · #30 (**permalink**) 05-11-2007, 10:05 AM

I'm not a big hitter, by any means, but I'm pretty consistent distance-wise, and I reckon on;

130-7 Iron
120-8 Iron
110-9 Iron
100-PW
90-SW
70-64^ Lob Wedge

That said, anything under 100 is the PW for me, and I vary the swing. It strikes me this probably isn't a good idea, and I should be building flexibility and options with a number of clubs, but I'm getting stuck into this confidence rut with it where I feel I HAVE to use to the PW, and vary my swing. Mad, huh?

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