clone golf clubs

TheDon · #1 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 04:24 AM

Hi...recently i read and heard about clone branded golf clubs on the net and loads of it selling through ebay and other websites. Does anyone have any view/s on this? Are they as good as reviewed on the websites? Appreciate if anyone could share their views with me.

LowPost42 · #2 (**permalink**) 07-16-2007, 01:01 PM

We've had quite a bit of clone vs OEM vs OCD discussion around here.

Read my signature for my general opinion.

To me, the best of both worlds is OCD (Original Component Design). These are companies like Alpha, Ashton, Nakashima, Geek, Bang, SMT, Wishon and others that do the same type of R&D that Ping, Callaway, Cleveland, etc do, but don't pay players on tour to use their stuff, and don't have the gigantic advertising budget (and who do you think pays for the two above?)

All the performance and tolerances at around half the cost - who can say 'no' to that?

TheDon · #3 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 03:28 AM

Thanks for the insight! I just needed some assurance on this. At times one would think these clones are fakes etc..

LowPost42 · #4 (**permalink**) 07-19-2007, 01:59 PM

There are clubs coming out of Hong Kong and Taiwan that ARE absolute fakes. They look very, very close to the real thing - and aren't labelled "Calloway" or "Tittleist", but rather "Callaway" and "Titleist". If you don't know what the real thing looks like, you could buy a fake. These fakes are the lowest of qualities - no testing is done whatsoever on them - for loft, lie, weight, COR (or CT), flex, anything. They're real 'jackpot' heads and clubs.

Clones are better (the tolerances aren't as tight as OCD and OEM, so weight, loft, lie, etc are more prone to being off, and being off to a greater degree) the annealing process (metal hardening) isn't as good - meaning breakage is more likely when bending.

IMO, like I've posted above, the only difference between OCD and OEM is the marketing and advertising budgets. You don't pay for them with OCD, and you do with OEM.

Trivia time: Who was first to the market with a 'spin milled' wedge?

SMT Golf and their Durometer wedge.

Hardhitter · #5 (**permalink**) 10-13-2007, 01:29 AM

ok everyone clones and the real thing are the same infact more care is taken on the clones then the real thing for example the brand new Taylormade R7 irons are around $1000 for a full set and there are clone called T7 and they are the same except for the price the t7 full set is $150 for a full set and they are the same if not better quality and Wishon is the best clubs out there so clones are the same except for price. i also think that golf clubs are way to (insert swear word) expensive it's a ripoff so clones are the way to go i am also not talking about knockoffs they are junk so there's my opinion.

LowPost42 · #6 (**permalink**) 10-13-2007, 03:00 AM

Young son, lets debate point by point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhitter

ok everyone, clones and the real thing are the same

No debate here. If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhitter

infact more care is taken on the clones then the real thing

More care in what sense? In the QA sense? No. Tolerances are much wider for clones - in both spec and material. This is one of the big reasons why they're cheaper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhitter

for example, the brand new Taylormade R7 irons are around $1000 for a full set and there are clones called T7 and they are the same except for the price - the t7 full set is $150

Sorry, not the same. Not held to the same tolerances. Produced by the same foundry in all likelihood, but certainly not the same clubs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhitter

and they are the same if not better quality

Again we're discussing quality. Again, we perhaps need to define quality. Quality (or the lack thereof) is the byproduct of specifications and tolerances. Since clones are not as rigorously manufactured as OEM and OCD designs, by definition they cannot be of the same quality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhitter

and Wishon is the best clubs out there

I won't argue that. But I'm a touch biased. I do think that they're some of the most playable designs, and very well thought out from a customization (fitting) standpoint.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhitter

so clones are the same except for price.

Yes, they're quite useable to play golf with, for far less than an OEM set. However I'm not sure that they're the best option to play GOOD golf with, as they can be difficult to customise (custom fit). If you think that you don't need fitted clubs to play your best golf, I think you're completely wrong - and I think that TLT is the sound logic behind my logic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhitter

I also think that golf clubs are way to (insert swear word) expensive it's a ripoff so clones are the way to go

I'm with you there. New irons are expensive, and you can't buy properly fit ones off the rack. A gigantic waste of money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhitter

I am also not talking about knockoffs they are junk so there's my opinion.

So how do you decide what is a clone and what is a knockoff?

You're more than welcome to your opinion, and I'm glad that you shared it.

I also hope that you don't take this point-counterpoint as a personal attack; as it's not meant to be that. It's meant to be an educational exercise for all that care (dare?) to read.

As a young golfer playing off 12, it seems you've already got your head screwed on halfway right regarding equipment. Let's complete the full turn and you'll discover the wonderful world of component designs - all the R&D of the OEM companies, none of the advertising/Tour player budget (that the end consumer pays for).

golfndawg · #7 (**permalink**) 10-13-2007, 03:18 AM

Smooth LP ..........Just smooth

LowPost42 · #8 (**permalink**) 10-13-2007, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by golfndawg

Smooth LP ..........Just smooth

I'm hoping so. I don't want to chase off other folks from the board - but similar to TW (that's Tom Wishon) I don't want misinformation to be floating around when I have an opportunity to correct it.

bill reed · #9 (**permalink**) 10-13-2007, 05:22 PM

hi
well put lowpost.
just to add. most top brands are made in china or japan and are made in only a few foundry's, the same foundry's often make clones of the top makers clubs but often use a different steel that is cheaper and like what lowpost said the tolerance's are often greater between clubs. OEM head are often made to the same high standards at the top makers and are often better as they are only sold as fitted clubs unlike most top brands bought of the shelf.
only Ping make there own irons in the USA and they have there own foundry that also makes aircraft parts and of limbs for the disabled so they can stand the cost of running a very large foundry, other club makers cant support that cost in the USA anymore and Wilson was thew last to close down there USA foundry. one thing you don't find with clones is development to the same amount as some of the top 3 or 4 makers, most are a few years behind, i know that one or two OEM clubs are very specialist and there make a wonderful produce and Wishon has a world reputation for quality.
bill

Hardhitter · #10 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowPost42

Young son, lets debate point by point.

No debate here. If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

More care in what sense? In the QA sense? No. Tolerances are much wider for clones - in both spec and material. This is one of the big reasons why they're cheaper.

Sorry, not the same. Not held to the same tolerances. Produced by the same foundry in all likelihood, but certainly not the same clubs.

Again we're discussing quality. Again, we perhaps need to define quality. Quality (or the lack thereof) is the byproduct of specifications and tolerances. Since clones are not as rigorously manufactured as OEM and OCD designs, by definition they cannot be of the same quality.

I won't argue that. But I'm a touch biased. I do think that they're some of the most playable designs, and very well thought out from a customization (fitting) standpoint.

Yes, they're quite useable to play golf with, for far less than an OEM set. However I'm not sure that they're the best option to play GOOD golf with, as they can be difficult to customise (custom fit). If you think that you don't need fitted clubs to play your best golf, I think you're completely wrong - and I think that TLT is the sound logic behind my logic.

I'm with you there. New irons are expensive, and you can't buy properly fit ones off the rack. A gigantic waste of money.

So how do you decide what is a clone and what is a knockoff?

You're more than welcome to your opinion, and I'm glad that you shared it.

I also hope that you don't take this point-counterpoint as a personal attack; as it's not meant to be that. It's meant to be an educational exercise for all that care (dare?) to read.

As a young golfer playing off 12, it seems you've already got your head screwed on halfway right regarding equipment. Let's complete the full turn and you'll discover the wonderful world of component designs - all the R&D of the OEM companies, none of the advertising/Tour player budget (that the end consumer pays for).

what i think are knockoffs are clubs with a very poor metal in them i (forget what the metal is called) but clones are pretty darn close to the real thing and btw my clubs i use are sun valley titan stain-less (knockoffs of callaway hawk eye and they work fine for me, a good 8i goes 120 on an easy swing (yes i do hit the ball long for my age) i hit driver around 200 yards but back to my point clones and the real thing are pretty close and just a question but have you read the book Tom Wishon 12 facts about golf or something like that. it talks about club fitting and clones versus the real thing if you have the you know what i am talking about.

LowPost42 · #11 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hardhitter

what i think are knockoffs are clubs with a very poor metal in them i (forget what the metal is called) but clones are pretty darn close to the real thing and btw my clubs i use are sun valley titan stain-less (knockoffs of callaway hawk eye and they work fine for me, a good 8i goes 120 on an easy swing (yes i do hit the ball long for my age) i hit driver around 200 yards but back to my point clones and the real thing are pretty close and just a question but have you read the book Tom Wishon 12 facts about golf or something like that. it talks about club fitting and clones versus the real thing if you have the you know what i am talking about.

Not only have I read 12 myths, I have also read 'Search for the perfect golf club', 'Search for the perfect driver', 'Common Sense Clubfitting', 'Practical Clubfitting' and distribute said 12 myths by Tom Wishon with every set I build. I've also read stuff by Jackson and Maltby, just to name a couple others.

The metal you refer to is Zinc, or any alloy with zinc in it. Zinc and zinc alloys are lightweight, but do not bend. They break. While I don't mind using them for kids clubs (most people don't want to spend a ton of cash on kids clubs when they figure they'll grow out of them too fast... nevermind that I try to encourage proper fitting for kids clubs by offering the reshaft at half price on a kids set, and use quality heads to fit them into), on the whole I wouldn't bother with them for the aforementioned reason (you can't make up for a head being out of spec).

Don't get me wrong, hardhitter. If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it. You could play zinc irons, wedges and putter with an aluminum driver. It can all be done cheaply. Clones or lookalikes are much better to work with (ie they can be bent to correct tolerance errors), but generally speaking I'd rather support those doing their own R&D, those that are reputable. If it 'looks like', or 'compares to', then I don't sell it, I don't even stock it. I'll work on it though, after you sign a waiver.

bill reed · #12 (**permalink**) 10-28-2007, 10:04 AM

hi
like lowpost said if it golf shaped you can play with it, Lee Trevino use to play with a Dr. Pepper bottle with a broom handle in it and he would use at at demos and beat the local handicap players using just that.
i know with some of the clone Ping g2s and g5s the back of the club is cast with the tuning port part of the cast, with Real Pings there is weight added to balance the club and also a dampener to reduce vibration, this is only a bit plastic on the clones i have seen, but i bet you could still play with them but i think you would know the difference to the real ping, i don't know about some of the other clones but i think there are two types of clones like lowpost said, the clones "COPY!" and the makers of there own heads like smt and wishon to name two and there ever bit as good as the top brands and Tom Wishon has probably done more research in his time than any top maker has.
i think in the end you get what you pay for, you pay more for better quality controls and there research and back ups, I think thats why drivers are so costly now and you can get copy,s really cheep but what would you rather have a copy or the real thing.
bill

IHateMyFade · #13 (**permalink**) 07-13-2008, 03:14 AM

I realize that the last post in this thread was about 9 months ago, so maybe no one will post after me, but I'm a sort of a predicament concerning this subject. I'm currently looking at buying a new set of irons and, when I get money again, a new driver. The set of irons I'm looking at buying is a clone of the Cobra S9 irons shown here:

http://www.cobragolf.com/irons/details.asp

The clone irons are shown here:

http://www.golfideas.com/28/Irons/5155/Snake-Bite-C6

I also mentioned myself looking to buy a new driver, also a clone. This club is a clone of the Callaway Hyper X Driver, shown here:

http://www.edwinwattsgolf.com/golf-e...18_-1_1102.htm

The clone driver is shown here:

http://www.valuegolfclubs.com/Driver...per_X-1177.htm

Now, here's my question; the clubs that the clones are clones of (sorry for the confusing wording) have gotten very good reviews from what I've read, but I'm kind of skeptical about the quality of the clones. In the experience of you, the readers, are clone clubs good quality? Are clone clubs as similar to the original design as advertised? Basically, am I getting pulled into a trap? Do you think these clubs will be bad, or do you think they will help out my game as much as I think and hope they will?

P.S. The links to the irons I'm looking at are messed up, they're sending me to a set of Taylormades I was checking out earlier. These are the correct links, hopefully they'll work.

Original:
http://www.cobragolf.com/irons/details.asp

Clone:
http://www.golfideas.com/28/Irons/5155/Snake-Bite-C6

bill reed · #14 (**permalink**) 07-13-2008, 11:25 AM

hi
the thing with lot of clones is that they are made from old casts of the real club, the casts no longer making the quality of the real clubs and are no longer used except in clones and also the steel used is often not of the same quality.
i think another factor is how good a golfer you are.
if a high handicapper then you might not notice the different in the clone and the real thing but if you were a low handicapper then your more likely to see the difference.
a lot of the big makers are make in China now and there clones come form the same makers that make the real thing, the shafts are not the same and are often a cheaper made shaft.
ping is the only maker that still made in the USA and the have there own foundry and there main business is making aircraft parts and making golf clubs is a side line to there main business as the can afford to keep there foundry going as it it also used to make aircraft parts where others like Wilson could not afford to to keep a foundry going just for golf clubs and had to source out to foundry's in china where the don't have the same control of of the making of clones as they did when there clubs were made in the USA.
most clones are better than some branded clubs made in the 70 and 80 but you find the tolerances are not as good as the real clubs. with say with Callaway you have 12 yards between clubs you could find with clones of the same club that the differences between clubs are different, you could have some clubs with a 14 yards difference and others 10 yards difference. the lofts are often + and - 2% on most makers and with the new pings it is 1% on there G10s but with clones it could be as much as 4% error.
with clones you take the risk of getting a really good set or a half good set or a set thats well out between

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