A couple of Rules q's

Following a couple of "incident's" over a couple of rule interpretations in my playing group last Saturday, thought I'd come to the forum and I stand to be corrected...

1. Is the player entitled to free relief should their ball come to rest on embedded stones...? I believe so.

2. Is the player entitled to free relief should their ball come to rest on exposed tree roots...? I believe not.

3. The player's ball has clearly flown into long grass over a foot deep, during the search for it, the player stands on a ball that may or may not be his, is marking the position of the ball with their foot permitted when lifting the ball for ID purposes...? I can't find anything in the rules specifically saying not.

Your collective thoughts are welcomed...

Cheers

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Look at the Target, Look at the Ball, Swing... Dr Bob Rotella...

1) I think you're right
2) I think you're right
3) IIRC, it's tough to say. The rule states the ball must be marked, it suggests a few marking options, but doesn't explicitly say WHAT must be used to mark.

Thanks Ben. I'm pretty confident 1 & 2 are right, but, will clarify on point 3.

Given under rule 13-2, a player may not do anything that might be considered to "improve the lie of the ball", marking the ball with your foot may be considered in breach of that rule, if and only if they were going to attempt to replace the ball and subsequently play a stroke at it.

If the player was taking an unplayable or seeking relief under any other rule, and the ball was not to be replaced, I guess there wouldn't be an issue.

But again, I stand to be corrected.

Cheers.

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Look at the Target, Look at the Ball, Swing... Dr Bob Rotella...

You do not get relief from embedded stones - see the definition

Loose Impediments
"Loose impediments" are natural objects including:</SPAN>
· stones, leaves, twigs, branches and the like,
provided they are not: </SPAN>
· solidly embedded,

I would be wary of marking with your foot. If you should move your foot (eg fall over) your ball will no longer be marked and you will incur a penalty. You must be able to guarantee that the ball is replaced in exactly the same position.

Rule 20 3B

If the original lie of the ball to be placed or replaced has been altered:

1) Except in a hazard, the ball must be placed in the nearest lie most similar to the original lie that is no more than one club length from the original lie, not nearer the hole and not in a hazard.

Thanks aaa.

I guess it's no different using your putter to mark on the green while you spin your ball - but if your putter comes off the ground at all, I guess you've lifted your marker?

I would agree with this. You do not get relief from any stones. If they are loose Impediments you can remove the loose imediment but you can not move the ball in doing so.

Now if it is a friendly round I would not want to damage clubs and would take some sort of relief.

OK, the situation, as it occurred, goes like this.

Following his tee shot, the players ball finishes on the second hop in some very long, deep couch grass. We all saw it go in. So, there was no question, the ball was in there.

Both player and marker were treading heavily in the area, looking for the ball. So his marker is now aware of what is going on.

Player treads on something he thinks is a ball, says so and presumably in so doing, takes care of the requirement to announce his intentions in marking and lifting the ball, and using his foot to mark the position of the ball, bends over to pick it up. It isn't his, it goes into the pocket and the search continues.

Player again stands on something he thinks is a ball, again says so, again marks the position with his boot, again picks up the ball, again it isn't his, again it goes in the pocket. Again, the search continues.

A third time the player stands on something that could be a ball. Marks its position with his boot, picks it up. This time it is his ball. Now, in attempting to replace the ball, player notices there are stones in amongst the grass. The grass borders a crushed bluestone compacted path and presumably there will be loads of crushed bluestones throughout and asks for relief and is given it.

The Bluestone path is clearly man made, and the stones would be loose impediments in this location.

Here is the crux of the problem. The past Captain kept saying the Player was not entitled to mark the position of the ball with his boot. In my reading of the rule book since, there is no specific mention of any "must" in reference to marking the ball, only "should" which is a "recommendation" not an "instruction".

It certainly caused much discussion, most of it unhealthy towards the end of the round and ultimately resulted in the Player being DQ'd. For the moment, I disagree with this decision.

I remain happy to be corrected.

Cheers

__________________
Look at the Target, Look at the Ball, Swing... Dr Bob Rotella...

Interesting that they DQd him.

Even if he wasn't entitled to mark with his foot (and I don't se why not) surely the penalty should have been either 1 or 2 strokes?

"Before lifting the ball, the player must announce his intention to his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play and mark the position of the ball. He may then lift the ball and identify it, provided that he gives his opponent, marker or fellow-competitor an opportunity to observe the lifting and replacement. The ball must not be cleaned beyond the extent necessary for identification when lifted under Rule 12-2.
If the ball is the player's ball and he fails to comply with all or any part of this procedure, or he lifts his ball in order to identify it when not necessary to do so, he incurs a penalty of one stroke. If the lifted ball is the player's ball, he must replace it. If he fails to do so, he incurs the general penalty for a breach of Rule 12-2, but there is no additional penalty under this Rule."

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I firmly believe that we should try to experience all that life affords, except, perhaps, bestiality and of course Morris Dancing.

Still have to clarify with the committee as to why they DQ'd him and I'd had enough of the place by the time I did hear part of the story and didn't wish to discuss it any further...

The partial story I heard was that he was DQ'd because he followed an incorrect procedure in taking his relief, and once notified, didn't go back and correct his mistake, by playing a ball from the correct place and taking the penalty.

It remains open to conjecture as to whether he was notified about his error, and if in fact he did make an error...

Interesting...

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Look at the Target, Look at the Ball, Swing... Dr Bob Rotella...

Given the rest of the story, I suspect it would also be interesting to know how much influence the ex-Cap had on the commitee - but then I am a little cynical sometimes.

Man made objects are not loose impediments but rather obstructions. Loose imediments are natural. I would guess it depends on the amount of rocks i.e a cart path v. 1 or 2 stones. I think relief is appropriate (loads of blue stone). Once entitled to relief and no longer placing the ball the marking becomes moot and point of relief is the issue. (I think once you pick up the ball you pretty much have to go to the nearest point of complete relief regardless of where that is)

Rule 24 -- Obstructions

• Obstructions are artificial or man-made objects. Bottles, tin cans, rakes, etc., are movable obstructions. Sprinkler heads, shelter houses, cart paths, etc., are Immovable obstructions.
• Movable obstructions anywhere on the course may be removed. If the ball moves when moving an obstruction, it must be replaced without penalty.
• You may drop your ball away from an immovable obstruction if it interferes with your swing or stance. Find the nearest point not nearer the hole where you can play without interference with your swing or stance. Drop the ball within one club-length of that point. (You may move your ball away from an immovable obstruction if it interferes with your swing or stance.) Note: You should not pick up the ball from an obstruction until you have established the nearest point of relief.

That certainly doesn't sound as if the ball was on the path.

But it is "man made object" The blue stone is used for Cart paths some or a lot is now around your ball which is diferent then Loose impediments which are natural objects that are found in normal course on the golf course.

So the first determination is wether it can be removed or not. If not then he gets a drop. If it can, he can remove it even if it requires him to move his ball.

At least that is my interpretation.

I'm not familiar with 'bluestone' other than

Bluestone - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but see Dec 23/14 which mentions gravel which is, no doubt quarried in a similar way.

In my experience stone chips used for surfacing are treated as loose impediments when individually considered.