Club lengths measurements in taking relief (once and for all..!)

This seems to be a perennial favourite, but I wonder if I can get a final answer?

My club chairman was telling me yesterday that in taking relief from something, the club length I measure with has to be the club I would normally use to play the shot.

I'm pretty sure my Peter Dobereimer book says the opposite; that I can use any club I like to measure it - including, if I wish, borrowing a broom handled putter from a different group on the course as long as I do not unnecessarily hold up play.

Who's right? I was wondering if it was a decision rather than a rule, and that was why I hadn't heard of it?

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~_~_~_~_~
Personal bests 2007;
Best 18: 78 (+12)
Best 9: 37 (+4)
Best Stableford: 45 pts
Best total putts: 28
Best total length sunk putts (ft): 54

Club tourney history this year: Captain's Day - 1st; Club foursomes - 2nd; Dimex Stableford - 2nd; Club Championship - 13/28 gross, joint 5/28 nett; Ferebee Shield - 2nd; Sept Medal 2nd; Autumn Stableford - 1st

Don't know if this helps but the definition of nearest point of relief supports your chairman and says (see the Note) :

"The "nearest point of relief" is the reference point for taking relief without penalty from interference by an immovable obstruction (Rule 24-2), an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1) or a wrong putting green (Rule 25-3).

It is the point on the course nearest to where the ball lies:

(i) that is not nearer the hole, and

(ii) where, if the ball were so positioned, no interference by the condition from which relief is sought would exist for the stroke the player would have made from the original position if the condition were not there.

Note: In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such a stroke."

However I'm sure I've see pros use their drivers or long handled putters under these circumstances so they may be a ruling somewhere else.

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I firmly believe that we should try to experience all that life affords, except, perhaps, bestiality and of course Morris Dancing.

Great thread,

The main rule is one club lenght for a free drop, two for a penalty.

I know the rule says that relief is taken with the club you intend to use, this is to establish the point where the first tee is place (nearest point of relief) then one club length.......this can be any club in your bag........not sure about borrowing..!!!! a little unnessasary.

The rule that gets me is an animal scapping (it has to be a burrowing animal not a dog) rabbit expert need on hole 3..lol..........is it ball lies in or feet standing in one???????????

Help for this would be good.

Ian.

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Once you learn the swing, your next step is mastering golf psychology................

Etiquette suggests you use the club that you'd use for the next shot, however, you can use any club. You can also borrow a club - provided that in doing so you don't have more than 14 clubs (ie if you intend on borrowing, you'd better only have 13 clubs in your bag).

You need to distinguish between the club taken for determining the nearest point of relief and the one used for subsequent measuring.
The Rule says the first should be the one you would take if there was no interference. A keen RO may look askance if you took a long putter for a wedge shot, possible 1-4 situation.
Hopwever, there is no contraint on the club used for measuring the dropping distance or the maximum roll distance.
Furthermore, there is no constraint placed upon which club you use to play the shot eventually.

This is what my understanding of the rules are too.

That's brilliant guys, thanks so much - I'll look forward to putting him straight!

Interestingly, Dobereimer lists this as the only specific exception to the fourteen club rule - that there is no penalty for being in temporary 'possession' of a 15-club bag. I can quote him if you like..? I presume it's followed from a decision rather than a rule?

Can anyone provide me with a reference for this?

Decision 24-2b/4 states:
The Note to the Definition of “Nearest Point of Relief ” states: “In order to determine the nearest point of relief accurately, the player should use the club with which he would have made his next stroke if the condition were not there to simulate the address position, direction of play and swing for such stroke”. If the subsequent lie of the ball were such that it was expedient for the player to play his next stroke with some other club, may the player use the other club?

Yes.

Are there any others?

__________________
~_~_~_~_~
Personal bests 2007;
Best 18: 78 (+12)
Best 9: 37 (+4)
Best Stableford: 45 pts
Best total putts: 28
Best total length sunk putts (ft): 54

Club tourney history this year: Captain's Day - 1st; Club foursomes - 2nd; Dimex Stableford - 2nd; Club Championship - 13/28 gross, joint 5/28 nett; Ferebee Shield - 2nd; Sept Medal 2nd; Autumn Stableford - 1st

I am not sure what you are asking. Do you mean are there any more decisions explaining npr determination and what clubs may be used?

Why should there be? One decision is enough.

Clearly one decision is enough if it covers all eventualities but to me, the decision quoted doesn't.

This accounts for the situation of the different lie, but nothing else. If I'm 60 yards out, so use a SW to determine my point of nearest relief, drop, and end up with a perfect lie, how do I then claim that the lie of the ball now makes it expedient to use my driver, and hence use that for the measuring?

This may sound stupid, but if you have the perfect lie, why do you want to re-measure?

I think it’s been said here several different ways, but to maybe clarify to BD2k. Any time the club is laying ON THE GROUND when you measure, you can use any club you want....period. Any time the club is IN YOUR HANDS to measure (you’re taking a stance), then you’re required to use the club you would hit. After all the measuring and dropping are done, you are free to hit with any club you want.

Example: Ball in lateral hazard. You decide to take two club lengths from the margin of the hazard. This is measured on the ground, no stance required, use any club you want.

Example: Ball on the cart path, light rough both sides, 180 yards out. You would normally hit a 5 iron, say. Use the five iron to take a stance to determine nearest relief. Mark the spot. Then pull out your driver and lay it on the ground to determine one club length from the spot you marked. Take your drop and play any club you like.

Why any club? What if you drop the ball and it bounces into a lone, particularly nasty patch of rough? It seems fair you’re allowed to use a wedge instead of the five iron to hork it out.. What if it settles into a "flyer" lie? It’s seems fair to that you’re allowed to compensate by choosing a six iron instead of the five.

From a practical standpoint, the difference in distance between a five iron stance and a wedge stance isn’t that much anyway.

Umm - getting into the area of pure speculation here, but... I end up just off fairway 20 yards from green in rough in GIR. I drop, and the ball rolls more than 2 SW lengths but less than 2 broomhandle putters to end up on the fairway.

According to the decision, I'm entitled to use a different club if it had ended up with a lie that necessitated it, but what would I do? I wouldn't have measured it necessarily with the broomhandled putter in the first place because I didn't know it would end up on the fairway, giving me the potential to putt from off the green. But whilst I can USE the putter for the shot, I don't see that I'm entitled to MEASURE it for the 2 club lengths because I didn't know that shot would be available until after I'd dropped it.

Yeah, but this is going miles back, isn't it? Thanks for the input, but we've been through all that - what I asked for was a rules or decisions reference confirming it.

Yeah, but that's exactly what I'm trying to seek the reference on. The wording of the decision I've quoted doesn't go that far.

Again - whilst that's what I'm trying to confirm, I can't find any rule or decision that says that, and I can't quite force the R&A's words from the decision I've quoted into that meaning

I agree, but the difference between 2 x (difference between SW and broomhandled putter) measured on the ground could well be three feet, which is more than the potential difference between being on the fairway or not...

__________________
~_~_~_~_~
Personal bests 2007;
Best 18: 78 (+12)
Best 9: 37 (+4)
Best Stableford: 45 pts
Best total putts: 28
Best total length sunk putts (ft): 54

Club tourney history this year: Captain's Day - 1st; Club foursomes - 2nd; Dimex Stableford - 2nd; Club Championship - 13/28 gross, joint 5/28 nett; Ferebee Shield - 2nd; Sept Medal 2nd; Autumn Stableford - 1st

FWIW, the broomhandle will be, at most, 3" longer than your off-the-rack driver.

hi
if taking a drop i use my driver to measure the drop as my playing partners would have in most cases the same club in there bag if they had to take a drop. don't think using my 52 inch broom handle putter for measuring a drop to be in the spirit of the game.
bill