"Over the Top" and "Casting" (slice problems)

I've always had a bad slice. What does "over the top" and "casting" mean in relation to slicing?

To answer your question, you have to understand WHY different spins on the ball cause a shot shape, Slice, Hook.

Straight ball - no side spin, clubface square.

Hook/Draw - counter-clockwise spin on the ball.

Slice/Fade - clockwise spin on the ball.

the amount of hook/slice depends on how much of this spin you apply. You can apply this spin with the path of swing and/or clubface in relation to this path. Hook closed face, slice open face.

So the path of swing can be inside to outside the ball target line which causes counter clockwise spin Hook or draw, or outside-in path putting clockwise spin and a slice or fade.

This means you have nine basic shots

1) Straight - straight path (ball target line) square face = no side spin.
2) Draw - path straight with face closed = counter clockwise side spin.
3) Fade - path straight face open = clockwise side spin.
4) Push - path insideout face square to path = no side spin.
5) Push Slice - path insideout, clubface open to path = clockwise spin.
6) Hook - path insideout face closed to path = counter clockwise spin.
7) Pull - path outsidein face square to path = no side spin.
8) Pull Hook - path outsidein face closed to path = counter clockwise spin.
9) Slice - path outsidein face open to path = clockwise side spin.


Now casting causes you to swing over the top meaning an outsideIn swing path thereby causing either Pullhook, Pull, or Slice dependant on what the face is doing. The more out of alignment the clubface is to the path, the more side spin is applied, bigger hooks and slices. Hope this wasn't too confusing.

Your question, in 1 way or another, is one of the most common questions teaching professionals get asked - casting & over the top and what's so bad about them than causes or aggrevates a slice.

Right, let's deal with casting first because that is the easiest one to answer. When you swing back, there is an angle between the club and the left arm. Look at pic 1 ... I have marked the angle for you. When you cast the club on the downswing you straighten the angle between the left arm and the club. When you cast badly, the club and left arm form a straight line very early on.

Okay? So that is what a cast is ...

A cast is bad news because leverage and power comes from keeping that sharp angle between the clun and left arm for as long as possible. Ideally, in a powerful swing, even when the club gets to hip height on the downswing you could/should have a 90* angle. (See pic 2)

To stop casting, work on keeping the wrists hinged for as long as possible.

Contrary to what a lot of people think, casting doesn't result in a slice. You can cast and still keep the club either on plane or have a flatter plane. Experiment with it and you'll prove the point.

Right, now lets deal with your more difficult 'over the top'. Question one is "over the top of what?" Well, let me explain that with a picture. Look at picture 3 where I have marked the upswing swing plane. Now, if the club travels on the BLUE side of the line marking the swing plane, the club is coming over the top. So, when we say "over the top", we mean the club travels back to the ball above the upswing swing plane.

Ideally, we want the downswing to be on a slightly flatter plane, "below" the upswing swinh plane (the yellow section).

Okay? Got it so far???

Now, let's quickly deal with what causes an 'over the top' start to the downswing. There are lots of causes, but the most common is starting the downswing with the shoulders and that pulls the club over the upswing swing plane. Try it ... swing to the top and now turn your shoulders and see what happens to the club?? See how it moves over the swing plane line??? That's OTT ...

Now, what's bad about OTT is that it causes a swing path that is from outside to inside and that's a classic slicer's swing path or a pullers swing path.

Okay - so hopefully you know what casting is, what OTT is and how they cause or aggrevate a slice.

Finally, if you swing OTT from the outside, the ball will definately start left of the target line becuase the ball has a huge velocity and won't get affected by the side spin yet. If you hit the ball with an open club face, as the ball starts to slow down, side spin plays a more-and-more important role and it'll start to curve to the right. A SLICE!!!!

If you have the same swing path with a club face that is square tothe swing path, it'll go straight left. With a closed club face, you'll pull-hook the ball.

This is a rather large amount of info but I have you now get the whole picture.

Attached Images

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	Pic2j.jpg (257.8 KB, 87 views)
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Hi, i used to have a slight slice with my driver and to cure the problem my coach told me to; lift the club head off the floor about 20" and the take a swing(like a baseball swing) repeat this 3 times before hitting a shot with the driver. This exercise promotes a flatter much less over the top swing.
i dont know if this will work for you but it worked for me.

In other words, the more lag you promote in the downswing (i.e.: Sergio Garcia), the better it is to prevent casting, right?

(it isnt' actauly lag becaues lag means to fall back of stay behind and lag it no ltting the club head pass the hands and that i only done by cupping or the right wrist.) you could get lag by cocking the wrist...... but then you would either have the club face 90 deg from sqaure or you that would mean you have a rediculously strong grip. but with a normal grip and square face it is still possable to lag and cast. casting is uncocking of the wrist at the top.

so, how to you get that kind of lag you refer to?
the kind that that sergio gets that bends the shaft and prevents casting.... once i learned how to swing... i can't cast to matter how hard i try to cast i jsut end up hitting it further.

sorry if you are a lefty this is for righties
try this..... put your left hand on the grip and make the "ok" sign with you right hand around the shaft with the thumb and forefinger (this is to let the right hand act as guide for the swing untill you cet the fell of preper release kind of liek a 3 finger overlap) get to the top of your swing and then (don't even think of the body let is be passive and react to your arms) and when you get to the top of your swing try your hardest (dont' hurt yourself) to throw your club at the ball and uncock form the top while your arm is moving down. if you try to uncok while your left arm is moving down you won't be able to untill about impact.... once you get that feeling then put your right hand back on the grip normally. and now to incorperate your right hand in the swing at the top, try to get that same feeling with the left hand only while consuisly try to feel what the right hand/arm is doing.... it it going from bent to straint.

try this also get a table or chair and put a scale on it (about waist high) and stand at the table like adressing the ball and cock you wrist up only. you club should now be facing the direction of you belly button and parellel to ground. not find a grip that allows you to get the most pressure/weight posible when pushing down (uncocking only) on that scale (whithin some limit i know that moving you hands closer to the club head will give you more pressure, but not in a golf swing) so keep a 1 finger overlap, interlock or basballe grip (depending on hand size) and push the grip down (by trying to uncock only)and change you grip accordinly to get maximun downward pressure (while uncocking) on the sclae..... memorize that feeling. that is the DS and the release. at the top of you swing, try to that same bending the club feeling you got agaisn't the scale while the club is at the top of you swing....you do that by trying to uncock as hard as you can whilst downswinging with the arms too. have youever heard of "hammering down" that is what you are doing. you are trying to uncok or hammer down but can't untill you club comes into impact when the club releaes automatically hard and fast and you will hit hte ball further and straiter than you ever have....not to metion you will feel a lot more efforless and easy and you will be feeling the clubhead throughout the swing as you are supposed to feel. subsequently, you will get rid of casting....but instead of trying to get rid of castin, you should try to learn to hit correctly and casting will automatically be eliminated, and you will hit longer and straiter than ever. that once you know how to swing the club with the arms/hands you can then put the body into it to really get some power.

the reason over the top makes slicing happen is becausey you go from out to in. that also says that you are probly letting the right arm take over too much in the wrong way.

(i recommend you look at this post to further clarify) http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/go...-how-golf.html

I actually thought casting had more to do with an over the top swing. I had no idea casting was an uncocking of the wrists at the top of the downswing until now. Sorry to make you write such a long reply for a problem I didn't know I don't have. I'm presently trying to emulate Sergio's downswing... precisely the one where he bends the shaft with his monsterous lag. With good lag, how can you not hit it farther? Oh, and how in God's name can anyone have any power through impact when uncocking the wrists at the top of the downswing? Good reply lgskywalker37. This will probably help others who have a casting problem.

Thanks again.

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I see exactly what you're saying cmays. We know that to produce lift, the ball absolutely needs do rotate in a backward motion (backspin). If the ball were to be hit only with sidespin, it would either hook or slice and lift but a few inches off the ground... or not lift at all for that matter. It's simple physics at work here.

Cheers!

and the reason the ball pulls first and tilts or slices second i becaue the pull is from club path and the ball explodedes off the face in a ballistical trajectory in the direction of the swing path and once all that umph runs out then the aerodynamics of a ball (dimples) takes over and the ball travels the way of the spin. that is why slices usually end up going higher and when they go right becaue they still have some back spin on it. the club path deterimnes the trajectory the ball will start off, and the club face angle at impact dictates how much of a side spin conpentent wil be on the ball and where it will go after all the ballistical energy runs out..

the ball only does what it is told, it doesn't know which way it is facing. so becaue of he magnus effect the ball will go in the direction opposite the spin. if the ball has back spin stright at 6 and 12 it will go strait and rise but if the ball has backspin at 1 and 7 we consider that side spin, but, you are right, it is really backspin with a sideways component on it..... it is jus that that backspin is tilted and makes the ball go that direction. the move servere you ball slices the less it will rise. so if you slice so bad that the ball goes about 50 yds then takes what looks like a 90 deg turn....that would be considered sidespin more than back spin if the ball is rotating at 3 and 9 (which i have done before.) but anything under that would be foward spin and is pretty much inpossible.


i have been to an driving range with old smooth balls (dimples worn away) and hit them.... the ball does some wierd things like a knuckle ball, its kinda cool..... but after about 200yds (when all the balistical energy is gone) the ball just drops dead fast.

The dimples on a golf ball serve one simple purpose : reduce drag for increased distance! A perfectly round ball with backspin will produce lift just the same, but the great amount of drag produced by it's shape would prevent it from traveling 250 yards in the air for instance.

i agree, that is called the magnus force.