the set-up, Moe vs the Pros

BrianW · #16 (**permalink**) 02-21-2008, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobby

Does Moe's straight-armed set up with the ball positioned 3 - 4 inches further away allow a more consistent swing?
Could this be because the club has less chance to go over the top or too far inside because arms are already fully extended and can really only travel on one plane?
Thoughts!

Moe set his arm position at address to mirror his impact position, there is so much less to go wrong this way.

ben hogan · #17 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 01:34 AM

You Tube

BrianW · #18 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 09:20 AM

Thanks for that Ben. What a nice video.

jamesh · #19 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian Hancock

Moe executed the 3SKs perfectly.

Simple arc

downward blow

rotation of the arms

Perfect and simple.

Ian.

This is an innocent question –not rhetorical –what is the point in rotating the arms….there was a discussion on it here a long time ago – I follow Leadbetter’s stuff – and he doesn’t mention it – and I read an article by Tiger Woods and he said that he is working away from rotating his arms since it brings in inconsistent play since it has to be timed properly. Nonetheless, it is still very popular and I just wondering why….

Thanks,

Jamesh

BrianW · #20 (**permalink**) 02-22-2008, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesh

This is an innocent question –not rhetorical –what is the point in rotating the arms….there was a discussion on it here a long time ago – I follow Leadbetter’s stuff – and he doesn’t mention it – and I read an article by Tiger Woods and he said that he is working away from rotating his arms since it brings in inconsistent play since it has to be timed properly. Nonetheless, it is still very popular and I just wondering why….

Thanks,

Jamesh

Skill 3 in 3Skills promotes the clubface approaching the ball open and leaving the ball closed, in other words it passes from open to closed through impact. The premise of this action is that it creates effortless power. Although 3 skills does not instruct you how to do this, rotation of the wrists can be the only way. AJ Bonner and others also promote this action as a power generator. It seems to create a burst of clubhead speed as the clubface whips through impact

kbp · #21 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesh

This is an innocent question –not rhetorical –what is the point in rotating the arms….there was a discussion on it here a long time ago – I follow Leadbetter’s stuff – and he doesn’t mention it – and I read an article by Tiger Woods and he said that he is working away from rotating his arms since it brings in inconsistent play since it has to be timed properly. Nonetheless, it is still very popular and I just wondering why….

Thanks,

Jamesh

Here is why the forearms rotate.
http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/g...l#post10549962 (Release Thoughts)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avid Golfer

If you swing the arms, but don't turn the shoulders or torso the arms will rotate like you are describing. While that is one way to swing a club I think it lacks the ability to produce power the way one that involves the rotation of the shoulders and torso does.

David Leadbetter, Rick Smith, Nick Faldo, and Nick Price have all said that club face rotation at the 8 clock position and hip high position is an optical illusion based on your spine tilt and where your head and eyes are positioned. They have each said if you step around to face the club in that position (without moving the club from its position) you will find that it is square to your body still (just like it was at address). I have also heard that the optical illusion is a result of the club swinging on an arc or semi circle. (The club head swinging on a large semi circle path while the grip end swings on a mini semi circle. Rick Smith has illustrated this better than any other instructor I know).

In response to Avid

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbp

This is basically correct and it's also what a lot of people fail to realize about the "opening" and "closing" of the clubface. As long as the club is centered between your shoulders, the face is (basically) perpendicular to the shoulders. As the shoulders turn away from the target in the backswing, the clubface also turns away from the target and "opens" relative to the target line. The foreams are not required to "roll" much at all to allow this. When the shoulders return to parallel to the target line, at impact, the club face is still perpendicular to the shoulders and has thus "closed" to square relative to the target line.

To illustrate, do the old drill where you address the ball and then pick the club head up and rest the shaft on your back shoulder. Then turn the shoulders 90 degrees in the backswing direction. Push the hands up and away into a top of backswing position. No deliberate forearm rotation required. Same thing if you turn and lift simultaneously as in a normal integrated backswing motion.

The forearms are only required to "roll" open or "roll" closed when the club gets ahead or behind the center of the shoulders. As Avid points out, the arm swing without shoulder rotation is the classic example. Take the club back to the top, as best you can, without any shoulder rotation. The forearms are forced to rotate "open" on the backswing as the club gets outside the shoulders and must similarly rotate "closed" on the downswing and follow through.

These are two extremes. The opening and closing of the club in an individuals swing falls somewhere in between absolute pure shoulder rotation and pure forearm rolling depending on the lead/lag of the club relative to the shoulders. Yes, the club must open and close relative to the target line, but this is the nature of swinging on an arc.

Forearm rotation has very little to do with ADDING power to the swing. It IS a necessary action, to some degree, to allow the club to reach maximum speed and to square the clubface. When correctly incorporated into the swing, it is a basically passive reaction to proper mechanics.

Neil18 · #22 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben hogan

http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=w8bphcoEGc4

I needed that.

Thank you.

bill reed · #23 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 05:41 PM

hi
not all golf swings rotate the forearm as you come into impact some like Lee Trevino and Mindy Blake work hard not to turn the forearm or hands.
most players that play a draw use the rotation of the forearms to square the clubhead but looking at Moe swing i don't see much if any rotation coming into the ball and the hands turn only after the ball is in the air.
one other thing if you look at Moe's drives, all have a little fade to them, he has said he hits it straight with a little fade and all the clips i have seen have the ball fading a little and thats maybe one reason why he never was a long hitter. remember Lee Trevino is in the golf hall of fame and noted as being one of the straitest hitter of a golf ball of all time.
cheers
bill

kbp · #24 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 08:30 PM

True, very little forearm rotation coming into impact in some swings, especially with a strong grip or with a swing that uses the body to square the club. However, these swings typically have some forearm rotation after impact as the club moves past the body in the follow through (or else they purposely "hold-off" like Arnie and others)

If anyone is interested, consider how grip strength affects forearm rotation at impact. Also consider how hip and especially shoulder position (ie, a bit open versus dead square or slightly closed) at impact would affect forearm rotation in conjunction with grip strength.

BrianW · #25 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 09:17 PM

This is what Moe did with his wrists:

bill reed · #26 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 09:43 PM

hi Brian
nice clip.
his left wrist seems to be very stiff and no wrist break, seems to be gripping very hard with his left hand, you cant see that well in that clip but in other clips he seems to have the back of his left hand facing the target a bit longer through impact that most other pros of the time.
cheers
bill

AvidGolfer · #27 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianW

This is what Moe did with his wrists:

I don't like that picture / animation

. To me it doesn't look like the wrists are doing anything active. The arms appear to be rotating, but because of the perspective and angle it isn't clear if they are rotating with the body, or independently of it. Reguardless I wouldn't recommend that people copy Moe Norman. You don't see modern tour players and lower handicappers setting up and swinging like Moe, and I think that in and of itself shows way it isn't a good swing to copy.

BrianW · #28 (**permalink**) 02-28-2008, 11:29 PM

The best ball striker ever. Modern players can copy who they like but the very best of them respect what he did.

____________________________________________

In a 2004 USA Today Q&A interview, VJ Singh was asked this question: Who's the best golfer you've ever seen?" Singh's answer: "Moe Norman. I've hit balls with him lots of times. He was incredible. Whatever he said he could do, he could do. If you talk to Lee Trevino and the other greats of the game, they'll tell you how good he was. He could talk it, and he could do it. God gives people little gifts, and Moe had a gift for golf."

_______________________________________________

Norman and Sam Snead were playing an exhibition. Both players needed about 250 yards to clear a stream. Snead laid up, then watched Norman prepare to go for it.

"You need to lay up, Moe," Snead told Norman, "you can't carry that creek." Norman replied, "I'm aiming for the bridge."

And after his laser-straight shot rolled right across the bridge, over the hazard, Snead didn't try telling Norman again how to play a shot.

____________________________________________

"Hogan had always asserted that there was no such thing as an intentionally straight golf shot. After watching Norman hammer one perfectly straight shot after another, Hogan just scratched his head and walked away, suggesting that Norman "keep hitting those accidents."

_____________________________________________

AvidGolfer · #29 (**permalink**) 02-29-2008, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianW

The best ball striker ever. Modern players can copy who they like but the very best of them respect what he did.

I agree that people can copy who ever they like. I'm simply stating that I believe that anyone who copies MOE Norman's swing will not advance very far. A Moe Norman style swing will never generate the 200 Mph ball speed (see Sport Science video clip) generated by the likes of Zuback and other Re-max / Pinnacle long hitting golfers.

Its you're opinion that he is the "best ball striker ever", and I have seen and read nothing that suggests that he was the "best ball striker ever". He hasn't hit more greens in regulation, or fairways then other players past and present. He never shot a score that hasn't been bettered by other players before his time, and after his time. I have seen no evidence that he ever beat anyone noteworthy in competition. Bobby Jones played against and beat players like Harry Vardon. Ben Hogan played against and beat players like Sam Sneed and Byron Nelson. Jack Nicklaus played against and beat players like Arnold Palmer. Greg Norman played against and beat players like Nicklaus, Ballasterios, and Faldo. Who did Moe Norman ever beat? From what I have read Moe Norman's history is full of hearsay, and little to no factual evidence. The Ben Hogan, Sam Sneed, and other stories read like fiction, and I find it hard to believe that any pros were ever impressed by Moe Norman's ball striking.

I think you've got the wrong Norman that impressed Singh:
Vijay Singh Comments About Norman
May 25, 2004
Vijay Singh, the No. 2 ranked player in the world, had this to say about Greg Norman following the first round of the Volvo PGA Championship at Wentworth.
"I remember seeing Greg Norman in Australia in 1986 or 1987, something like that. He hit a ball on a par three that came out like a cannon and I turned to a friend and said, 'That's what I want to be able to do one day.'"
http://www.shark.com/sharkwatch/sharkbytes/may_04.php

BrianW · #30 (**permalink**) 02-29-2008, 10:45 AM

No, it was Moe that VJ made the quote about.
http://www.moenorman.com/

Moe Norman did not fit in with the USA tour scene but that does not detract from his fantastic ability to hit a ball exactly where he wanted it to go time and time again.

Read a little more about him, you may find it enlightening.
Moe Norman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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