Weight Shift (How/Why/When ~ Bottom up or Top down)

Go Low · #1 (**permalink**) 05-01-2008, 09:44 PM

Message deleted by Go Low

BrianW · #2 (**permalink**) 05-01-2008, 10:32 PM

Hi Go low,

I know I tend to refer to this guy quite a lot but I think this video and the drill is good for understanding the transition:

You Tube

bill reed · #3 (**permalink**) 05-02-2008, 11:44 AM

hi Go Low
i found what you said very interesting and agree with most of it but i see it from a diffrent point of view. if you take Mindy Blake and his reflex swing he does what you say to a large point, swings back and then uses the hips to start the downswing but does not control the arms or the hands, he lets them follow in a reflex action.
it a bit like throwing a ball you don't think of taking your arm back only think of the target your throwing too, it all happens in a reflex action. the mind controls the body better when you don't think about it. you don't think of picking a pen or swatting a wasps away it reflex and the golf swing is also like that if you let it happen.
set up and see the shot in your mind and then let your body hit that shot.
i agree the swing starts in the mind but let the mind control the swing and don't try and control it as you cant react as fast the the mind does.
in tennis you see the shot you want and hit it you don't think i want this type of shot as the ball coming to you it a reaction, i would say the same in ice hockey it happens so fast most of it is a reaction that happens without thinking, of football, you just shoot you don't have time to think most of the time and it reaction and training and doing it so many times it happens without thinking.
like playing the piano at first you think of the note but later you think of the piece your playing but not of what the fingers do' that they are control by the mind and your not thinking of each finger but only of the music in front of you.
golf is very much a mind game in many ways.
cheers
bill

BrianW · #4 (**permalink**) 05-02-2008, 01:05 PM

A very well structured and considered post Go Low.

I can agree with what you have said here but I think there are some other considerations that would affect the outcomes of letting the brain take care of the lower body movements.

The brain is clever at processing intentions into physical activities but it does use instincts based on what the physical world has taught it. In many actions like throwing a small stone or ball, striking an object with a device like a stick, tennis racquet, baseball bat etc the striking part of the object or the object to be thrown or kicked is in direct alignment with the hand, arm or leg, the face of the golf club is offset and I think this makes it more difficult for the brain to control the action. There are other natural instincts that confuse the brains conception of how to best strike a golf ball, hitting under and upwards for example is a natural way to launch an object into the air, using maximum force and effort in a short explosive action is a natural instinct to propel an object with speed. There are many other things related to sending a golf ball to your target that are opposites to the way our brains naturally process the task based on it's learned behaviour or instincts.

There is merit in your assertation that actions in the golf swing can happen naturally without undue swing thoughts, I would also propose that in golf we need to ingrain into our motor skills many techniques through learning and practice.

pnearn · #5 (**permalink**) 05-02-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go Low

The conclusion is that you should start the downswing from the top with the intent to swing your arms and hands, and the brain's processing centers will make sure that your lower body/hip motion will preceed the motion of the arms and hands to support the upper body’s movements and intentions.

mmm .. if only my brain could play for me

... but ive seen many many high handicappers just slash at the ball with their hands from the top, weight stays on the back foot, they fall backwards/scoop etc

As with anything in golf different people need different thoughts/images/feelings to help them with their particular problem. I read your posts with interest but sadly (depite many people telling us otherwise)there isnt one single answer/conclusion for everyone. For the person who doesnt shift his weight at all in the DS or who indeed is totally in the wrong position at the top this advice wouldnt work

Im sure Greg and the other teachers will tell us how many individual faults they see that all need different drills and fixes to put right - weight shift is just one of them

Personally, I like to feel the hip bump to the left/stand on the left heel to start my downswing -- if I just swing at with my upper body/hands I would come OTT. I bet im not alone. For someone who has an over active lower body your advice would probably be spot on

jambalaya · #6 (**permalink**) 05-02-2008, 04:48 PM

Even in throwing a softball the brain does not necessarily tell the lower body what to do without instruction and rehearsal. I coach girls softball and when I tell a girl to throw a ball for the first time believe me when I tell you that their lower body movements are more times than not the opposite of what they should be. Most of them step with the wrong foot first and don't shift their bodies around at all. Instead of planting the foot on the throwing arm side they step forward with that foot in the classic throw like a girl motion. I am going to digest what you said some more but their are some flaws we need to work out in the logic.

This thought of yours brings about some interesting questions:

Attempting to shift your weight, as a separate event just prior to (or at the exact moment of, or whenever) the downswing will spoil the intended downswing event.

You are talking about getting around this problem. I would love it if you could turn on the light for me and solve it. I don't think about it with my irons any more but my driver and other long clubs are a different matter.

BrianW · #7 (**permalink**) 05-03-2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go Low

Let me tell you a little story:

Many years ago (late 1960's or early 1970's) I watched Bob Toski at Foxfire G&CC in Pinehurst, North Carolina hitting balls on the practice range. Another fellow was with Toski by the name of Paul Bertholy. He was an older man and a name you may not recognize. Anyway, Mr. Bertholy was working with Toski on his swing that day. I sat there for over an hour and watched every move Toski made as he hit ball after ball after ball with mid and long irons. Every ball was struck like a machine had been used. For the longest time I watched him set the forearm/club shaft angle (on plane) and take the club back only half way and then stop - and with a very slight upper movement of an inch or two he started his downswing and hit the ball beautifully, with a length and ball flight as if he used his full swing. His weight shift and balance was perfect. He made it look effortless and so damn easy.

I was young man back then and working to find my own golf swing...or better put - the secret. Anyway, in search of help the next day I called Mr. Bertholy, who lived in nearby Southern Pines to ask if we could meet. He invited me down to his house for a meeting the next day.

I explained to Mr. Bertholy that I had been an observer the previous day watching Mr. Toski on the practice range with him. And that I wanted to understand how Bob Toski, who is just a tiny little man, could hit the ball so far and so consistently...especially with just a half swing. He said, "once the forearm/shaft angle is set it doesn't make much difference if you go further back in the backswing as long as you know how to swing the club correctly." His comment, of course, caused me to ask for his help in explaining how to swing the club correctly... Mr. Betholy smiled a little and then patted his right shoulder twice, and then balled up his right fist and shook it at me, then he held his right arm in a 90 degree angle as if he was showing me his bicep muscle. He said something on the order of, "Use the God-given strength of your right side and let the left arm control the arc...you can't have too much right side power."
(Note: He clarified that the right shoulder moving down is what started the downswing, not the right arm or hand. The right arm being used later in the downswing as a piston of sorts as it straightens, and the right hand used to connect the force of the right side power to the golf club.)

While we continued to talk in his living room that day he also gave me some other advice - he told me to have a good grip, find the correct swing plane and swing the club shaft on it like Hogan, pull the right elbow inward toward your side with it pointing downward and bent no more than 90 degrees, use your right shoulder (moving down) to start the downswing and then pour on right side power of the arm as hard as you want to swing the club and use that power to swing the club all the way through impact, don't stop the right side from powering the swing until after impact or the swing will be lost, don't allow the right elbow angle to collapse from the force used from the right shoulder to start teh downswing. I took careful notes that day many decades ago...

When I was ready to leave Mr. Betholy gave me a pipe he had made that he used to simulate the right shoulder/arm/hand framework to retain it deep into the downswing. He also said that he was expecting [golf professional] Guy Boros to visit with him later that week. Something else funny happened during my visit, which made it rather special. He thought I was a young tour professional that another professional had recommended I come see him. The funny thing about it was, he thought I was that young fellow that was new on the tour - Tom Watson! (I do look a little like Watson and we are about the same age.)

Attached picture is Paul Bertholy in 1981 at age 66 (died in 1998 at age 83)

That's a nice story, thanks for sharing it.

Of late I have been impressed with the 3Skills method of golf teaching, you will see it mentioned a lot on this site. It gets the student to focus solely on the way the clubface approaches, strikes and leaves impact with all clubs while leaving the swing to take care of it's self, as long as the 3 principles are carried out. This frees the brain from clutter and does not confuse the student with many swing thoughts.

I have played golf for some time now and have a fairly grooved swing that is based on the one plane principle. There are two aspects that I focus on these days to keep the ball contacting the sweetspot and that is head behind the ball and a committed release.

bill reed · #8 (**permalink**) 05-04-2008, 10:22 AM

hi Go Low
1- if i swing with my left hand and don't move my body then i hit the ball most time but not far.
2- with the right hand i have to use my hips more and have a bent elbow to hit the ball well.
3- i would swat with my right hand and swat towards my left side.
4- right hand more than left.
5- right hand.
6- right hand.
7- back of right hand.
i think what your saying is what Trevino's has been saying since the 70s,
that right handed golfers should use left handed club so there strong arm can lead. Trevino is left handed.
cheers
bill

Lohnro · #9 (**permalink**) 05-04-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go Low

Have you ever tried hitting golf balls using just your right hand? How did you do?

I hit them pretty well, not much consistency though!

Have you ever tried hitting golf balls using just your left hand? How did you do?

Not well at all

If I gave you a golf club without the head on it (just the shaft and grip) and asked you to hit a bee or bug, which side (hand) do you think would allow you to hit it the most?

Right

If I re-attached the clubhead to the shaft which method (left hand or right hand) would allow you to hit the club's sweetspot, measuring the size of a dime, the most?

Right

If I gave you a golf club without the head on it (just the shaft and grip) and asked you to compete in a [shaft tip] speed test, which side (hand) do you think would allow you to produce the highest speed?

Right

Which method (left hand or right hand) would retain the lag angle (between forearm and club shaft) without "intentionally" (manipulatively) holding the angle?

Right

If I asked you to stand beside of a golf cart and slap the vertical [back] cushion to compress the foam inside the cushion as much as possible, which side (hand) do you think would compress the cushion the most?

Ummm Right as well!

I take it the right side should be a lot more dominant than the left??

Go Low, your tip about starting the downswing with the right shoulder has really helped my swing and especially my consistency!! It has also freed my thoughts over the ball, knowing that the rest of my swing just kind of falls into place!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go Low

(1) The downswing needs to start on plane. (Flatter left arm at the top is better than upright, and level shoulders are better than tilted. Left arm should be on a slightly more upright angle than the shoulders angle at top of backswing as viewed from behind the golfer.)

(2) Start the downswing with the right side structured framework you created, which is comprised of the right shoulder/arm/hand/club). Think how you would swing a stick at a drink can laying on the ground with just your right arm/hand...and just add the left arm/hand on the end of the stick. The proper swing plane (ref #1) is paramount.

(3) Start the downswing by moving the right shoulder (and the structured framework) down, not outward. Think how your shoulder moves down (not out) if you were swinging a stick at a drink can laying on the ground with just your right arm/hand. Elbow angle of no more than 90 degrees and hold that angle as the right side powers the downswing. Again, the proper swing plane (ref #1) is paramount.

That is excellent advice for my game.

Cheers mate

bill reed · #10 (**permalink**) 05-04-2008, 01:55 PM

hi Go low
if you were to play with left handed clubs would you not be more inclined to power the with the back of the right hand a bit like hitting at the seat in the cart with the back of the right hand. more driving the hand through the ball with the left hand following and using the body more for timing the swing.

i have never tried to play left handed clubs and I'm way to old to change now but i think if i was in my 20s again i would try it by getting say a 5 iron and working on it just to see the difference.
i know with Trevino when he was 8 he could only get right handed clubs so thats what he played with but he has spoke often about us golfers playing left handed with right handed clubs and i do understand whats he saying. Trevino believes he is playing left handed golf as his left hand leads just like big Phil said he plays right handed golf but he plays with left handed clubs.

in number 7 of your question you get so much more power hitting with the back of your right hand swinging away from the body that i do using my left it would make sense that if i swung a club i would be the same.
if you then added some body movement i think i would still have more power swinging to the right than swinging to the left, a lot of the time your trying to control your right side in swing to the left.

what i do think is the most important move is the right elbow dropping in front of the right hip and the hip then helping drive the elbow round to the impact area and it keeps you on an in to out swing, stops over the top and out to in swings.
cheers
bill

bill reed · #11 (**permalink**) 05-04-2008, 03:01 PM

ho Go Low
yes i would still use my right hand and my right side just like you would say.
with the think about Leadbetter etc. you could be right but most of the youngsters they get to see already do have the starts of a good swing.
VG Singh plays just as good left handed as he does right and i think he is the only pro player that just as good right handed as left.
cheers
bill

golfinguy28 · #12 (**permalink**) 05-04-2008, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go Low

Here are pictures of Ben Witter hitting 300 yard drives straddling a Swiss ball.
Not much lower body power in this swing!

Ben Witter is all about balance and about being on plane. Most people can't even sqaut on a ball for more than 5 secs like that let alone swing a golf club and stay on it or even hit a 300 yarder. That guy has some mad skills if you ever saw what he can do. I used to practice at a driving range he teaches at. I can't even stand on thoose exersize balls for more than a second as most can't.

I think he supports your theory, he just swings and his lower body supports his upper body in order to keep him in balance naturally. If you ever saw his workout's, he has some dynamic balancing rod with weights on either end ans shakes it back and forth at halfway back in all the way back and halfway through and all the way through so that the rod oscilates ("the body blade)" and forces your body lower body to move naturally to support the upper body and stay in ballance.

bill reed · #13 (**permalink**) 05-04-2008, 07:37 PM

hi Go Low
good story and good of you to pass on your knowledge to help other.
keep up the good work
thanks
bill

ben hogan · #14 (**permalink**) 05-04-2008, 09:23 PM

Could you give us an analisyis of these fellows?

You Tube

jambalaya · #15 (**permalink**) 05-05-2008, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Go Low

I see no one has answered any of the questions. It would be nice if we had some willing participants to share their findings.

Anyone?

Sorry, I have been away. I used to heavily rely on my left arm to swing the club based on some bad advice I got when I first started playing. The person in question basically said that you hit the ball with your left arm and the right arm just goes along for the ride. It is only in the last five years when I actively started to try and actually learn the fundamentals and develop my swing that I have learned the importance of the right arm/hand. I won't answer all your questions individually but say I am in agreement. I can actually hit the ball pretty well with my left arm but it takes a lot of strength to keep the club steady. It is much easier to handle the club with the right arm of course. Using the right arm make it much easier to open up and turn the hips through the shot.

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