How to Cure Flipping ??!!!

Wider stance makes it harder to turn. So, if you stop turning and slide/thrust the hips forward, you will come from WAY inside with an open clubface (push-fade, push-slice). If you try to save the shot with the arms, you will come over the top with a closed face (pull hook).

For my driver, I set up with the insides of my feet in line with the middle of my shoulders.

I find that I stay with the shot more with a narrower stance. I'm not talking super narrow, just a very athletic position, like I was fielding a ball as a shortstop.

Too wide, hips don't turn right. Too narrow, you don't have enough width to keep balance.

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What's in my bag....
Cleveland VP 2 Blade Putter
Ping Tour Wedges, 54 & 60
TaylorMade rac LT2, 4i thru PW
Tour Edge Exotics Iron-Wood 21* 3i - Aldila NV 90 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 18* 5 Wood - ProLaunch Blue 75 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 15* 3 Wood - Aldila NV 75 Stiff Shaft
Cleveland HiBore XL 9.5* - Fujikura Fit-On Red Stiff Shaft

I find that too. Im working at the moment on fine tuning an optimal setup to support that really hard turn from the top

Try this, if you have the room to do it.

Put on a pair of socks, no shoes. Grab your driver. Go into a room that has carpet. Take your normal width stance and have BOTH feet point perpendicular to your target line (big toes point at 12 o'clock). Take your normal backswing.

This all assumes right handed golfer....

What SHOULD happen is your right foot should turn clockwise because you don't have enough traction to keep it stable. Repeat this several time watching how far your foot rotates clockwise. If you see a trend, setup with your right foot in that position.

Now, with your right foot in that position, but keeping your left foot pointing at 12 o'clock, make some full swings. Maybe 50-75% to start. Your left foot should want to rotate counterclockwise. If you see a trend, setup with your left foot in that postion.

I have done this myself. I actually ended up flaring my left foot out to almost 10 o'clock, and my right foot to about 1 o'clock. I feel very balanced and feel I can make easier turns on the backswing and downswing to my follow through. Before, I think my feet were not flared enough, limiting my hip turn.

Everyone is different, some have even foot flares, some have none. All depends on the type of swing and flexibility.

I think the proper flare, spine angle and width are the 3 keys to the correct setup.

__________________
What's in my bag....
Cleveland VP 2 Blade Putter
Ping Tour Wedges, 54 & 60
TaylorMade rac LT2, 4i thru PW
Tour Edge Exotics Iron-Wood 21* 3i - Aldila NV 90 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 18* 5 Wood - ProLaunch Blue 75 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 15* 3 Wood - Aldila NV 75 Stiff Shaft
Cleveland HiBore XL 9.5* - Fujikura Fit-On Red Stiff Shaft

I got the "confessions" video and that was interesting.

Admittedly, my pro put me on another tool that has identified some other issues that has really, really helped me. That tool is the Swingyde. This thing has been a Godsend. I found my clubface was open at the top of the backswing and I couldn't get it into position due to my grip. Once I changed that, I can get everything in good position and keep the face closed.

The Swingyde also teaches you to release the club since that is the only way you can get your left wrist into position on the follow through.

Again, I highly recommend the Swingyde for these types of problems.

I'm a new man !!!

Thanks,

R.

Chessbum,

Ditto, my man! Tried the motorcycle drill today at the range and (stop me if you've heard or said this before) the results were astounding. I've battled the pushes and shanks for several weeks, not to mention the fat-thin cycle, and today I hit maybe two pushes out of 75 balls, and no shanks. The rest were either fairly straight or hooked (15 mph hook wind). Mostly crisp contact, only a handful fat (but passably so). Best part was the drill helped me achieve the firm (bowed) impact position of the left wrist that I've been working on for a year. For those who have the flips — and I suspect a lot more golfers than realize do — I highly recommend this drill. Try this before spending money on a gadget that you can't use on the course.

Dear Oufan,

I'm glad the drill helped and thanks for letting me know!!

Good luck,

Chessbum...

Chessbum,
Well, I must have overdone what seemed like a good thing. Last night, I started hitting gouging fat shots, mostly pulls, with an abnormally high ball flight. By "giving the club gas" I must be throwing the club off plane at the start of the downswing and I wind up looping it outside in. Any suggestions?

Chessbum et al,

Well, things went considerably better last night at the range. Apparently I was "giving the club gas" much too early in the downswing. When I waited until my hands were about even with my right leg on the downswing to "give it the gas," I started hitting the ball rather nicely. I still sometimes hit it a bit fat for my taste, but if it goes like last night, it should be all right.

Divots are overrated, in my book. I've read that Byron Nelson picked the ball clean off the ground every time and never took any turf. He had to have had a rock-solid and consistent left-wrist position at impact.

Dear Oufan,

I am glad to hear that you are back on track but I must say that I really don't agree with you when you say "divots are overated".

If you get the swing right and you are coming into the impact zone (talking about irons) you have to pinch the ball between the clubhead and the ground with a decending blow. After the ball has left you can't help but leave at least a small divot. It's a sign of a well struck ball.

Look at every tour player and watch carefully how each one hits with a divot trailing the ball. Most of the time they are even taking divots when the ball is Tee'd up. Picture Stevie Williams picking up Tiger's divots.

The way the club is released through the impact zone is so important. Not only do you need a decending blow but the clubhead should be rotating around the left forearm. One of the BIGGEST reason's people aren't striking the ball well and not taking divots is we are flipping, the very topic of this thread.

In fact, I'll make a VERY BOLD STATEMENT: If you aren't taking at least a tiny divot, you are still conciously or subconciously still flipping the club.

As a test, and this is a great drill to cure flipping, put two balls down. One the ball you are going to hit and the second one 12" behind the first one. Now hit your original ball WITHOUT hitting the second ball. This will start to train you to hit with this decending blow. Think of pounding a nail on a slight angle right down and through the ball.

I know because I worked so hard on this very problem. My irons increased in length by two clubs once I started striking the ball properly. The signature of a well struck ball....is......the .......DIVOT.

Good Luck,

Chessbum....

i agree for the most part, but i will also agree that that is a bold statment, too bold IMO.

i can take a divot with a driver off the deck and i can not leave a divot, (but nobody likes to divot with their driver so they hit it with a level or blow and take no divot) and i can take no divot with a 9i and still get 160 yrds, with a very high flight.

taking a divot or not is based essentially where your head is (if your swing is correct) if your head is over the ball or in front of it you should take a divot. if your head is behind the ball you are hitting on a acsending blow, which is fine if that is what you want, you can still get great compression and accuracy and distance and you will get a high flying ball too, if you hit it on the upswing.

the reason you move the ball up in your stance the higher the club you go is for that very reason, you don't want to divot with your 4i, you want a nice level pick off the ground most of the time. sometimes people divot with a 3i even, but usually the divots get smaller the higher club you go untill you hit a 3w, the average 3w takes no divot.

now hitting an ascending blow or level is not for the amatuer with a less than 250 yrd drive, becuase chances are if they can't hit that far they are not hitting the ball correctly and will end up swatting or flipping at the ball and that is the kind of ascending blow you don't want.

Agreed. Drivers and long irons are exempt from the statement. I guess I thought that was understood. Oh well...

Chessbum...

If you keep yourself stacked and swing on plane it is very difficult to flip at the ball, even if you do the results will not be disastrous. Flipping the wrists becomes an issue if your weight prefers the back foot at impact (reverse pivot) and you are off plane. Consider a one plane swing, the flipping will not be an issue.

I think considering a one plane swing is like suggesting an aspirin to cure cancer. First of all, most amateurs don't have a clue as to whether their swing is one plane, two plane or a mix. Furthermore, most instructors including PGA certified don't know much more about it than their amateur students. Didn't it take at least a year for Peter Jacobson to change over and that was with the best teachers available. If an amateur could find the right teacher and was willing to devote the time, he'd still go broke after all the lessons.

I actually think the best approach is through the highly praised book from this website, "Nail It". Don't get me wrong, I am not 100% sold on the book but I do believe that if you work on the 3 skills they preach that you can overcome the flipping tendency. I think the drills they recommend are a little weak and there are much better drills to help but the concepts are sound!!

1. Attacking downwards towards the golf ball
2. Use a curving attack with the clubhead and hit the ball at the outermost curve
3. Work the clubface from open to closed through impact. This is an IMPORTANT ONE!

The proof in the pudding is that you must admit that you see some people with a swing that is not so pleasing to the eye but they manage to hit the ball crisply and with a nice divot following the impact. That's what is really required.

The ball doesn't care what your swing looks like , or if it's a one or two plane swing, only what the clubface at impact looks like.

My advice is to read the book or find some good drills on the net to help with the flipping. Flipping is real, it's an affliction 80-90 % of amateurs have. It's all about the impact zone.

Brian don't take offense. I just want to present a different point of view; one that offers some hope to us amateurs. We can't all devote our lives to converting our swing but we can work on some simple concepts and drills that will most likey help. Just my 2 cents worth...

Chessbum...

OK, thanks for your comments.

My main point is that flipping or swatting of the wrists is not necessarily such a bad thing, it becomes a problem when associated with an even worse fault, that of poor pivot and keeping the weight on the trail foot in the downswing. Swatting the wrists is able to enhance club speed if used correctly with a properly stacked swing. Read "The 7 laws of the golf swing" by Nick Bradley. I do not generally promote it though and was merely trying to get the problem into context.

Regarding a one plane swing. I would disagree that the concept is complicated or difficult to learn, what is called "The modern swing" where the club is rotated more around the body and only gets to shoulder high in the backswing is a form of a one plane swing, it is incorporated into many of the top tour pros now: Tiger, Ernie, Veejay and many more use it now as did Hogan. I would go as far as to say it's much easier to learn, low maintenance swing that has less complicated maneuvers and helps to prevent many of the problems associated with using a two plane swing.

I am a great proponent of 3Skills and agree it is a great program for anyone who has become paralysed with the mechanics of swinging a club at a ball.

If you really don't wish to offend me then please don't use analogies like aspirins for cancer, I do not try to offer advice that is IMO and experience unreasonable but I can see that some may not agree with it and that's fine, my advice is given freely and honestly.

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Best Regards
Brian

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Funny o'l game!

I too have an over active right hand in the downswing. To determine if it's only your right hand that's the culprit, remove it from the club but allow it to ride palm down and open on top of the left thumb during a swing. It should remain in a passive state, but still provide some stabilization to the swing. My own swing behaves quite properly in this manner when viewed via slow motion cam. But, if you're quitting early on your rotation, the wrists are probably the first thing to go at impact.