Have you been taught to swing wrong or RIGHT?

Ah now I see what we're on about.

Gotcha.

Ignore me. It's been a long nightshift and I feel like crip. Just right for going away to a posh golf course for 2 days. Perfect.

Great discussion! And very timely for me....

I didn't realize I was already registered here - I went to register with a new name and found my email was already registered.

The name I was going to pick was "FinallyOnPlane"

Because I finally am - after 30 years of only thinking I was.

And to me - that's the bottom line with this whole weight shift thing and how to start the downswing. If you are not on plane going back and at the top (referring to mainly a one-plane swing here) you won't be able to just fire your shoulders and arms back to the ball and expect good results.

I used to think I was on plane - and I would get caught up in the lower-body weight shift (legs and hips) in an effort to generate power. Sometimes this worked - mostly it didn't. I'm now convinced that it only worked because I was feeling the right timing that day - but to think you can mimick that timing day in and day out is fooling yourself. Especially if you play 7,000 yard courses from the tips with narrow fairways (as I do).

Now All I focus on is staying on plane to the top in my one-plane swing. My problem was taking it too far inside - my right elbow would get too far away from my body and it would point behind me. Because my hands are good manipulators, my problem wasn't the slice - but the pull-hook. Same swing flaw - different manipulation of the hands through impact.

Now I take it back smoothly and keep my right elbow in closer to my body and make sure it is pointing down at the top (my right palm is pointing more at 45 degrees). This keeps my left wrist flat (which wasn't before due to the back-pointing right elbow.

Once at the top, I now find I don't have to worry about my weight shift at all!! 30 years of playing golf (peaked at a 6-7 handicap) - and I always conscioulsy thought of my weight shift. I still due now at times - but it's out of habit. When I'm on plane going back and at the top I automatically feel a slight 'setting' of the shifted weight back to my left side which allows my hips and lower body to stay more quiet before allowing my right side to fire away.

I'm hitting dead on target - and further than I was. All with less use of my lower body. It's still being used - but it's not thought about.

GoLow is right on here. Just my take

You aren't kidding - but luckily I started when I was 8 - so I still have years left in the tank.

Hi GoLow.. dont worry I think its fun and correct to debate .. else how else do we all learn

I think were maybe beginning to come together a little. I understand better when you talk about a right side "structure". I think TGM folks call this a flying wedge. Would you then agree/disagree that its the downswing pivot that moves this structure down? Or do you think its a conscious movment of the hands/arms/stucture itself?

If I correctly pivot on the downswing by rotating my lower body off the right foot, my 'structure' moves down as my right shoulder drops. This brings my right elbow down in front of my right hip, my weight onto my front leg. As I keep pivoting the right elbow is leading the hands and I still have a FLW. From there I can rotate my chest/shoulders hard through the ball - I guess Neil feels as though its his right elbow he 'hits' through with - I feel its my chest/shoulders turning that structure/right elbow through. My shoulders turn as part of the pivot action

I personally cant let my arms drive the downswing pivot. If I do that the right side structure immediately breaks down, my right arm straightens (casts) and I have to hold on to keep the left wrist flat. This is why Im down on distance with an arms led swing I think

Does this make sense? Are we saying the same thing different ways?

Just as an update to this I went to the local muni this morning with 3 or clubs to mess around and try some things out

I tried some of your ideas and more especially the feeling that my right forearm controlled the whole swing movement - I played around with a right forearm takeaway a few years back so this didnt feel too unnatural. I then tried to hit the ball with my right forearm on the DS

I actually hit some pretty decent shots to be honest, but I found a few things. It was vital to stay centered and keep the weight 50/50 at the top, esle my right forearm 'hit' was over the top and I really had to feel as if the fingers of the right hand contolled the stroke. I also found more bend from he hips helped - slghtly more than I would have usually. With a pivot led down swing I can get a little more weight on the right instep and stand a little more upright

To me though they actually didnt seem a million miles apart in terms of how the right arm comes into the ball - but as you say it has to be the right forearm not the right hand

Those pictures show a two plane swing at the top. If he was using a one plane swing his right upper arm would be more in against his ribs and his forearm would be pointing up in line with his spine.

Like these first three, the last is very two plane.

This is where we totally agree! .. I spent a year getting my hand action out of the downswing but learning to feel where they and the clubhead were in response to what other parts of my body (i.e. the forearms etc) were doing

This is where we dont fully agree maybe. I think if you shift/rotate your lower body, whilst keeping your shoulders back/facing the target, the right shoulder will drop too and give you some axis tilt. Rotation from the ground up doesnt mean the shoulders rotate out too, they will and should move down, out and around in response to a proper lower body move - at least thats how I feel it happening. Do you agree?

I believe the shoulder work is uncousoius as well, when I tell my arm to stay bent, the shoulders has to drop. again being that the right hand indirectly controls the legs, hips, and body and shoulders. But I am athletic, I know how it can be difficult to teach some people to not "throw like a girl" (I know some males that can't do it either and for lack of better term, you know exactly what I mean, that horribly uncoordinated motion they call a throw). So maybe for the uncoordinated out there telling them to move the hips 1st and then the shoulders and walk them through might work. But if you can throw a ball like a man, you should be able to let your legs, hips, and shoulders happen and hit the ball with your right hand being your only swing thought if you wanna call it that like throwing the ball isn't really a "throw thought".

Hey what about this quake

X...Y...Z

I hope I wont be needing my flame-proof suit here but here we go, braced for the blast

I think these videos and the X factor are a bit of "Hokum Pokum" Or maybe "Hogan Pokum" If I was to accept the X factor teachings then I would be better off moving my hips 10 deg and my shoulders 90 deg. I don't believe the differential between the shoulders and hips act like a coiled spring, OK there is a little tension there but not that much.

My understanding is that the force needed to compress the ball suitable for powerful flight is generated by the acceleration of the club as the arms, shoulders and wrists (yes wrists) spin it around the body, furthermore it is the effect of COAM where the smaller arc of the hands transfers momentum to the shaft and clubface that maximises this head speed. So! the width of the arc creates suitable acceleration that gets increased through impact by the small arc driving the big arc. The torque created between the hips and shoulders play some small part but very little.

I think J M is not looking in the right place, he should be looking for the "A" factor or how the clubface is Accelerated from the top to impact.

Newton showed us that Force = Mass X Acceleration, what's that got to do with X or Y factor?

Really braced now

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

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Funny o'l game!

I'd never argue with an engineer especially about physics; so having dismissed "stack &* tilt" in a different thread may I just add Jim Mcleans "8 Step Swing", Golf Tec, TM's Matt Swing Analysis, the "Square to Square swing" to the list of techniques designed to make their "inventor" rich - please feel freee to add your own.

At least 3 Skills, which I hope makes Joe et al a few bob, just concerns itself about impact which I'd suggest is all that matters.

Can I boprrow that flame proof suit?

hi Go Low
i would take it that having an open stance would restrict you hip turn but not restrict your shoulder turn. and that a 40 to 45 turn of the hips would be all you could get due to the open stance and act like a restrictor but you would still get that 90 degree turn.
if you had a closed stance then i would think it would be harder to get that 45=90 turn unless on the back swing the club pointed way to the right and the left shoulder would turn way past the ball.
do you think thats why Hogan had the open stance to get the right turn to his hips and shoulders and that why he played a fade not a draw. i know he hatted to hook the ball and worked for years to get rid of it and maybe thats why he had the 45=90 turn and the sway to lower the plane and make him always come into the ball from the inside.
cheers
bill

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The distance the hips turn is related to the distance the shoulders turn and does differ with individuals, I have a fairly powerful frame but can turn my shoulders by around 110 degrees.

I think the hips should be allowed to turn to their natural supportive position in the backswing and the potential energy available in the downswing is related to the amount of shoulder turn and not coiling between the hips and shoulders, or not to any great degree.

If you wind a spring and let it go it will fully uncoil, if you extend an elastic band and release one end it will recoil, the muscle system in the body does not really react this way, Just take yourself into the backswing then let go, you will not rapidly uncoil.

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

________________________________
Funny o'l game!

hi Brian
what i was trying to say was if you had say a 110 degree turn on your shoulders and say half that with your hips then if you open your stance the you restricted how much the hips can turn but you don't restricted the shoulders as much as you shoulders are still in the same line up but your hips are turned more to the left in a open set up.
that will give you more separation between the shoulder turn and the hip turn.
i think that when you do get this extra separation you then have to have that hip shift to bring you back on to a flatter plane on the downswing.
looking at many clips of Hogan and Trevino both seem to start the downswing with a hip slid before the back swing is complete. in moat clips you see the hips move as the hands are still going back. tiger does this too and you see his club shaft bend as he starts the first few inches of his downswing.
i still think at first with Hogan and Trevino that the hip slid was done actively but later it was so ingrained that there is no thought about it.
i know when i was learning the Trevino swing you did have to think of the hip slid as many golfers think of the right knee kicking out and the shift of weight from let foot to right.
once you have it you no longer think of it.
i think its a bit like 3SK in you need a swing first then you can concentrate on ball contact but if you don't have the basics of a swing then you wont be able to contact the ball sweetly, you need the basics first and i think thats the same with Hogan he worked on the basics and and put some of the thoughts in his book the 5 fundamentals but added do what i say not what i do.
cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls