Hooking the ball....

Shootin,

I said that cupped and cock are often confused, and I preferred the terms dorsal flexion and radial flexion. You are making interesting assumption that I don't know the difference. However, you are right, late one night I used cocking for cupped since many people don't differentiate the two. Note: I've been the one supplying the pictures, which was my point.

1. John Jacobs has coached Gary Player. Helped Jack Nicklaus get his game together. Started one of the most highly recognized golf schools in the world. He has captained two Rider Cup teams. "John Jacobs wrote the book on coaching. There is not a teacher out here who does not owe him something."--Butch Harmon. While I admire Hogan, who did he coach to success?

2. You say that a short thumb limits backswing, which is a fantasy out of your own head. A short thumb has a tendency to give more control, but if it was a panacea for a long backswing, it would be universally prescribed.

3. Finally, and I think the most ironic of all, you seem to be claiming that we should all be following Hogan, but Hogan has dorsal flexion of his LEFT wrist at the top of swing. (Or if you prefer, Hogan had his LEFT hand cupped.) This made his club OPEN at the top of his swing and made his right wrist flat. Hogan had such active hands, that he had to start his swing in a severely open condition, have a very weak grip, and still he feared the hook.

Hogan couldn't have even worn "Greg Norman's Secret."

Please whip out your copy of Mr. Hogan's (who I do very much respect) to see his famous left hand at the top. I have attached a picture of the cover if you can't find your book.

Try to remember:

Cerebellum = Motor skills
Cerebrum = Analytical skills

Saying that you are going to simply going to take advice from somebody who has a great swing is a bit like saying that Toyota is so successful because they have racer car drivers desigining cars.

Personally, because I am so freaking poor at golf, I have been forced to actually read every expert rather than just make stuff up.

Theo "That Was Fun" Logic

Attached Images

Ben.jpg (37.2 KB, 12 views)

At address you should be able to see at least 2 knuckles on your left hand and at the very most 2 and a 1/2, but definitely no more than this or it result in a hook.

Will this make a much stronger and stable grip.

theo,

On point one,
dont use harmon as proof, he book is terrible and so are his dvd's, he has VERY basic info, nothing exciting.



On point two
take a club and grip it with a short left thumb, bring it up to the top of the backswing and hold it there, now while in that position just lengthen the thumb
DId I say this was a panacea for a short back swing????? I just said this is why HOGAN did it. Most golfers loose spine angle, among other things that are more important to aid in shortening the back swing.

AND TO QUOTE HOGAN ON PAGE 32 SECOND PARAGRAPH
"I changed from what is called "long thumb" the left thumb fully extended down the shaft to a modified "short thumb" contracting my left thumb and pulling it up a half inch. THe "long thumb" let the club drop down to far at the top of the back swing and it made it really rough to get my timing right."

your thoughts, Theo "I Need help getting my foot out of my mouth" illogic

On point three,
Cupped at the top is OK if you want to make an extra move to be flat by impact

Glad you have read so many "experts books" but you have yet to mention a book I have not read and you would have to mention MANY more before you get to that point I guess you think you are the only one who knows how to read

Shootin,

You have gone loopy.

You cast disparaging remarks on one of the most respected coaches of the 20th century (John Jacobs), and now you are throwing dirt on Butch Harmon. Do you even know who Butch Harmon is?

1. His Dad taught
2. He played as a pro
3. His students play like a "Who's Who"
4. And many say Tiger's downfall was when he lost Butch as a coach.

If you go to Golf Digest, you will see that the #1 rank golf instructor in the world is Butch Harmon. (See http://www.golfdigest.com/instructio...greatest2.html)

Finally, you aren't even reading what you write:

Here is your quote in an earlier post, "a short left thumb promotes a shorter back swing and allows less time for the club to square."

Now you say,

"DId I say this was a panacea for a short back swing?????"

Yes, you said exactly this. You said a short left thumb promotes a short backswing and allows less time for the club to square. (Give me a break.)

You then quote Hogan as a defining source for a short thumb, which Jacobs had already said was Hogan's own idea, and he did not see this with the vast majority of his pupils.

You also spend time saying that teeing the ball back doesn't have a chance of helping a hook with a driver. Instead you declare our person must be coming OTT. (Don't even get me going on OTT moves with a long driver--the shallow swing plane makes this difficult.)

Attached is a little image form Paul Foston's Golf Techniques. I hope you understand what he is trying to say about the effect of teeing backwards.

1. I am not bright about this stuff.
2. However, I read the experts and parrot their concepts back.
3. You seem to enjoy saying that I am arrogant. The term for this is "projection." Please read about this here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

Not only do you need to read a book, but you need to remember what was wrote.

Theo "Spring Is The Best Time For A Good Flame War" Logic

Attached Images

Teeing Back.JPG (29.3 KB, 12 views)

Shootin,

And to keep it going, when you quote Hogan, why not quote all of it?

He clearly states:

1. Minor
2. Only applies to those with the same swing pattern as Hogan.

Please read my first post on this. Hogan seems to be stating what I orginially wrote: We don't all swing like Hogan, and what worked him probably won't work for most of us. Otherwise, we'd all have a weak grip, and his famous "cupped" left hand at the top of the backswing.

Quote Below:

I have made two minor alterations. Right after I came out of the service, I changed from what is called the "long thumb," the left thumb fully extended down the shaft, to a modified "short thumb," contracting my left thumb and pulling it up a half inch. The "long thumb" let the club drop down too far at the top of the backswing, and it was really rough to get my timing right. I made my second alteration in 1946, moving my left hand a good half inch to the left. I was working then to find some way of retaining my power while curbing my occasional tendency to hook. Moving my left hand over so that the thumb was directly down the middle of the shaft was the first step in licking that problem. I regard both of these changes as personal modifications or adjustments. That is, they were beneficial for me and I would advocate them as sound measures for golfers with the same natural swing pattern and hitting action as myself. Let me make it clear, though, that I look upon them only as adjustments and not as fundamentals.

Theo

your original attack on my mentioning WHY HOGAN used a short left thumb ". You say that a short thumb limits backswing, which is a fantasy out of your own head. A short thumb has a tendency to give more control, but if it was a panacea for a long backswing, it would be universally prescribed."

You implied that I made this up, which I clearly did not, and when I provide proof, the drill I said to do and what hogan said in his book, you go off on a tangent and put more meaning into what I said then I originally said. A short left thumb will limit the back swing for anyone, BUT IT IS NOT THE ONLY LIMITING FACTOR NOR DID I EVER SAY IT WAS NOR DID I RECOMMEND EVERYONE WHO HAS A LONG SWING SHOULD DO IT.

Out of curiosity, have you ever studied under an instructor? I studied under someonone who makes some of the highest regarded training aides that have been used by top teachers, like Ben doyle, who has taught many pros. He also has worked for the likes of Ledbetter, haney, RIck smith, just to name a few. I have spent a couple hundred hours talking with him, disecting the swing, and viewing swing. Add that on top of the of all the books that I have read, some of them numerous times. SO you go ahead and be a parrot, this pirate is done arguing with parrots

Shootin,

Your golf instructor:

I quickly went thorugh your previous posts. While it was a quick skim, I think:

a. You've been playing for 5.5 years
b. You joined here last year, and was struggling with hitting against a firm left side.
c. Your latest golf instructor has been working with you for about 4 months, and is a Golf Machine guy. You were asking about the Homer stuff about 4-5 months ago.

This must be the instructor, since less than a year ago you were asking for drills on hitting against a firm left side. A good instructor would have clearly helped you on this.

So you say you've spent "a couple hundred hours" with this golf instructor.

Let's us do the math.

5 months = 150 days. So I guess that you spend a 1.5 hours every day with your golf instructor, but take off Sundays to get up to that 200 hours. Since he's cheap and/or has decided to give you a break on his rates, I bet you don't pay more than $100 per hour. I guess that we can do the math. 200 hours * $100/hour = $20,000.

Do you expect us to believe that you've paid $20,000 or that this world class instructor has been helping you for free?

All The Books You've Read

You've read a bunch of books many times. Many more than I have, but in all the time on this board you've ever quoted from one book--Hogan's Five Principles. So where are the quotes from all the other leading golf figures?

You clearly did not know who John Jacobs was, as you talked about "his golf swing."

Do you expect us to believe that you've read all these books, yet never quoted from them or refered to their authors?

Sincerely, I think that you have posted intelligent posts and that you have been thinking about the swing. I have no doubt that you have spent some time with your instructor, and he has helped you.

However, hyperbole and exaggeration does not bring credibility.

Theo

I studied under John more so then he was my instructor. I met him in October of last year when I was at a course and asked him if he knew of any drills to do with A training aid, called the power release. He then told me that he was the one who made it. I was skeptical of him and THE GOLFING MACHINE at first. John is a nice guy who got out of teaching for the most part and just focused on his training aids. If you look at John he does not look like the golfing "type" He is a biker, has three really nice ones, and actually used to be a member of a rock bacn called dealth cult, kind of creapy name. Me and John got along so for some reason he would talk to me about golf and not charge me but it costs me quite a few pizzas. RARELY did John actually go out to the range and give me hour long lessons in the traditional sense. I talked to him in between customers and then often times we would go out and hit balls on the range after hours. He also gave me home work, reading the golfing machine among other things. I know quite a few of the basic principles of the goling machine. When I had swing issues, which were many at first, I would tape myself and bring it in to him and we would analyze it. I fought him tooth and nail about doing the set up that he wanted, but once I did that many things started falling into place. He is the one who made me realize that set up is where it is at, first fix that and see what swing flaws are left over.

I usually pulled up to the range/course sometime around five and often times would not leave untill 10:30-11:00. I would venture to say over half of that time was not hitting balls but talking with John. I learned more from john in the first 4-5 months of knowing him then I had in five years of golf. In january I went with him to the PGA show in Orlando, where I live, and worked the show in his booth selling his training aids. Check out his site on www.rovergolf.com and see how many instructors use his aids, leadbetter, doyle, hall, smith, mcclean are a few. I Spent 4 days straight within 10 feet of Ben Doyle because he, the golfing machine, and rover golf were all in the same booth. Ben is a GREAT guy, you will never meet a nicer person, maybe someone just as nice, but not nicer. Had one all time classic conversation with Ben where he went from God to leakage with the smoothest of transistions. ALso met Manzella, Tom, and VJ singhs coach Paul is his name I believe. On friday of the show I went to the TGM conference where I met more TGM instructors and also Martin Hall, Very nice guy too

Do you notice that I do not ask many questions on here any more? If I have questions I go to Golfone, John, and manzellas forum but my questions to all those people has greatly dimenished, you can research that and see for yourself. many times I ask them questions to just confirm, but sometimes I still need to learn something.

why dont I quote many golf books, Hogans book is very popular and probably owned by more people then most any other book and I do feel he has a lot of great info. Most average Joes trust Hogan, know of him, and know he had a great swing. I have swing like a pro which I like, pennick which to me is not that great although other people swear by it, pelz but for some reason lost the short game bible which that upsets me, led, palmer, nickaluos, chopra, jacobs, hardy's I saw him in person and if you ever watch the show on the golf channel they focused on me as they were going to commercial it was either the second or third commercial and I was wearing an all white shirt, I can tell you this as well, Jacobson is a pretty funny guy in person, he had the whole crowd making animal noises at the end of the show but they edited that part. I have haney, harmon, McClean, Golf digest book of swing, think like tiger, raising the bar, Tigers book, Tour tempo, afternoons with Hogan among others. I have also bought a few others and returned them to the store. I feel most books are incomplete, which they are because otherwise it would be bigger then the bible. I can now read books and get something out of them because I have learned how to read between the lines. I believe that Golfing machine is the most complete but very hard to read, Glad John interperated it for me.

Like I said, I am done arguing and if you dont believe me that is fine, if I lie to you I am lying to myself. what really matters on this forum is giving sound advice to struggling golfers and there are times when I know things that can help them. I can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that my advice for Jbrunk is spot on, he is an easy fix even though he is a good player. You can call that cocky, arrogant, fine by me but I call it sound advice. You say you struggle so why dont you post a video or at least a 16 frame swing sequence and lets see if we can turn what you have read into something you can do.

shootin4par/theologic
i have been tracking this post for a while and it makes slightly uncomfortable reading i dont think anyone should have to prove their
credibility! it isnt a competition of who has the greater knowledge. im all for healthy debate but this post has been reduced to a slanging match. maybe these issues should be resolved by private messaging
FWIW when a hacker like me posts a query i prefer a simple concise answer like shootin4par and the other guys give i.e simple mechanics are more helpful and easier to understand whereas theologic your posts are very interesting but i find hard to process and use as advice.
just my opinion and we are all very different!

__________________
cheers slats
"Golf can best be defined as an endless series of tragedies obscured by the occasional miracle"

It will make a more neutral grip which is the key to straight shots. So yes you could say it is more stable.

Mr. Slater170,

You are quite right, and this is absolutely not good sportmanship.

I apologize. I do believe that Mr. Shootin has found an excellent instructor in Mr. Rohan-Weaver.

I promise to be more civil and tolerant from now on.

Theo "Repentant" Logic

Back on topic

IMHO, and remember I see the swing as just that, a swinging motion, nothing much more complicated, a hook is just a timing thing where your arms are outracing your lower body. The annoying thing is one day you can have them and the next day they're gone, but thats how fickle the timing thing is!

Whenever Ive struggled with hooks in the past Ive concentrated on two things

- Checking my backswing isnt getting too far inside and too far around
- Making sure Im not overswinging so my arm swing is too long
- Making sure I start my downswing with my knees and hands. That is I feel like my knees drive left of the target line and at the same time I swing through the ball keeping my upper body behind the ball

What Im trying to do is time my right side elements (right hand, right hip, right knee) to come down together in order to end up in Gregs impact position. Its when the arms go too quickly or too slowly that I hook/pull/slice/push

Timing, tempo and rythmn are so important ...

recently i have been hitting some good 260 straight driver shots,what i do is kind of flick the wrists when coming back down which creates more power and nice shots.

Need some more practice on the range until its completely fixed in my head.