club face/shoulder turn

I have a couple of questions concerning the club face of the club...and shoulder turn...
club face: I would like to know where your club face should be pointing after the takeaway..I have read many diff. positions in this forum and would like to know everyones opinion...should it be facing the sky? or in line with your plane?

I understand where the club face and shoulders should be at the top but in the follow through, should your shoulders be facing the target or past...? never found an answer and just wanted to know. I plan on posting a swing as soon as I am able to make it to the range with a camera for comments..but until then please help me find answers to my questions.
thanks

__________________
There are two types of criticism. They type you agree with, and the type you wont let yourself believe.

Whether either are helpfull is up to our own stubborness

I personally like to have the club head pointing up when it is horizontal with the ground and pointing at target. I tried pointing with swing plane but didn't like the look of the swing it created for me.

I just let my body go through the ball an equal amount as to how hard I've hit it. If I really let rip my shoulders may end up pointing past the target line but I'm sure someone will have a more technical explanation.

I was just messing around today and tried pointing it with the plane of my swing and it deff. felt diff and just wanted to know what everyone elses opinion on it was...my shoulders always seem to be past the target...not sure what that means

If you put another club on the ground parallel to the target from the right toe, then when you swing back try to end up with the club directly above the one on the ground toe up (scoreline vertical) and parallel to the ground, from this position just continue the turn to the top. The follow thru will do the same thing on the opposite side, toe up shaft parallel to the ground and target line. Of course all this depends on a correct setup and grip, otherwise your just wasting your time worrying about this, if you have correct setup and grip, these position happen quite naturally, they are just checkpoints, if they are off, it is usually because one or both are off. When I say setup, I refer to posture, alignment (shoulders, hip and feet) and ball position.

This is probably one of the best pictures I have ever seen from overhead of Tiger for getting into a good address setup, doesn't show the posture, but diffinately shows shoulder hip, and feet.

If you look at the thread oneplane vs two plane there are some photos of posture and setup:
http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/g...ane-swing.html (One plane swing and two plane swing)

Attached Images

Tiger-BackswingShift.jpg (103.7 KB, 17 views)

Basically, the clubface should be parallel to the back of the left hand throughout most of the swing, and always perpendicular to the clubhead's swingarc at all the different points in the swing. At the end-takeaway position, when the clubshaft is parallel to the ground and along the toe line, the back of the left hand should be nearly parallel to the ball-target line (with a slight downwards tilt) and the clubface likewise (parallel to the toe line with a slight downward tilt). The same applies to the followthrough position when the clubshaft is parallel to thr ground.

Regarding the shoulders, they should be square to slightly open (5-15 degrees open) at impact. Halfway through the followthrough, the shoulders should be about 45-60 degrees open, and at the end of the followthrough about 90-110 degrees open.

Jeff.

Maybe you can clarify this a bit. If by club face you mean the leading edge of the club face, I would say this is only true with a weak grip. With a strong grip, the back of the left hand (the label on the glove) is not pointing in the same direction as the leading edge of the club face. Of course as you imply, once you grip the club, whatever the relationship is, it isn’t going to change unless you let loose of the grip.

Again, maybe you can clarify what your trying to say. It seems to me that the only time the club head is perpendicular to the swing path is at address and at impact. At the top, I would think it was better described as aligned parallel to the swing path. During the swing, is it not moving from perpendicular to parallel and back to perpendicular?

Maybe cmays can jump in here, as I think he has a pretty good grasp on the grip. With a so called strong grip, how would you describe the alignment of the back of the left hand (the label of the glove) relative to the club face. What about the relationship of the club face and the back of the left hand to the swing path at the top? (Either or both types of swings)

I am inclined to second C. May's answer
on the grounds that different swings produce
different club face positions, and that factor
depends so much on the hand action.

(I, personally, like to have a bit of "position
golf" in my head, especially on the range,
thinking that it might help in those moments
where "on the fly" diagnosis is called for; not
that it has ever really helped.)



Here is the start of an interesting aticle by
PGA pro Sean M. Cochran, found at:
http://www.pgatour.com/story/9273001/
In previous weeks, we’ve talked about the relationship between the body and the golf swing and how golf fitness exercises can improve the golf swing. We began with the address position and now look at phase two of the golf swing -- the takeaway.
This is the point where the golfer begins the dynamic movement of the golf swing and where the body really starts to get involved. The bottom line is the takeaway transitions the golfer from the address to the beginning of the backswing. In talking with swing coaches, they often reference the takeaway as one of the greatest problems for many amateurs. This is where the golf swing is either started correctly or taken off-track from the start.
Looking at the body in terms of the incorporating it in the takeaway, this is where it gets involved in the swing. It’s the beginning of weight shift, dynamic stabilization and rotation in the body. One of the most problematic areas is the takeaway gets out of sequence and is not unified with the body. You often hear swing coaches say you need to create a one-piece takeaway and need the body to move in unison with the club.


I think it is Sean's last sentence here that says the most.
Getting the body and the club moving together, the
face angle will take care of itself. Try to manipulate
the face to a prescribed angle, especially with the
hands & there could be no end to it.

kpb

You are partially correct. The clubface will be perpendicular to the clubhead swing arc only if the grip is neutral.

See this photograph -- http://jeffmann.net/AB-ClubheadArcComposite.jpg

Note that the clubface is roughly perpendicular to the clubhead swingarc from the address position to about 9 o'clock. By 10 o'clock it is slightly open. From then on, it becomes progressively more open so that it is parallel to the swingarc at the end-backswing position.

The same situation applies to the downswing and followthrough. It is roughly perpendicular to the clubhead swingarc from impact to 3 o'clock.

Therefore, it can be generally assumed that the clubface is roughly perpendicular to the clubhead swingarc from about 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock.

Jeff

I made another composite imgae of the clubhead movement in the downswing.

See - http://jeffmann.net/AB-DownswingClub...cComposite.jpg

Note that the clubface is roughly perpendicular to the clubhead swingarc during the late downswing and early followthrough period.

Jeff.

Cmays, would you please elaborate some more on Palmer, Greg Hutton’s position, square to square clubface, etc. and the other aspects of a swing that make this work for some people? Almost all instruction out there preaches flat left wrist and parallel club face at the top, although, IMO, it would seem these two things are not technically possible for some grips and swings.

Excellent information. Thank you for taking the time.

If you care to, would you please continue along the lines of wrist action and wrist positioning for weak and strong grips? It seems obvious that wrist action and wrist positions during the swing would be significantly different depending on strength of grip (and the angle of the club face, a la Greg’s picture), yet this is seldom illustrated.

KPB it will pay you great dividens to really grasp what cmays is saying, some say to play with a neutural grip, I don't subscribe to that, and to add another thought. I primarily play with a strong grip, because it takes the right side of the course out of play for me, but if trouble is left, I will use a slightly weak grip to take that side out of play, this only works if you really understand the different hand action, but it is quite useful. You can fade or draw the ball using either of these methods with minor setup changes, but the ability to exclude one or the other side of golf course is a big bonus. Your bad shot with a weak grip will tend to be right and left for the strong grip, with neutural you are subject to have a bad shot in either direction, so it is good to know what side of the course you are likely to hit your bad shot.

Just an addon: The reason you want to take one or the other side of course out play is, in my case with a strong grip knowing I won't slice I can run the right side of the fairway, if it goes straight i am on the right, nice draw , I am in the center, big hook, I am on the left of the fairway, same hold true for the other side and a fade, point being I get to use the entire fairway. With a neutural grip and not knowing which way it might go, I am force to choose the center, now I have only half a fairway to work with, so a bit of course management get put in here as well.

First, thanks GoNavy, you’re preaching to the choir. I play right to left and operate exactly as you do.

Thanks cmays, good stuff, as usual. Again, if you have the time, a little on the "cupped" wrist with a strong grip. Obviously a strong grip has a cupped left wrist at address, what does this translate into at the top? What about at impact? Thanks again.

Cmays

Your write-: "The Left/front wrist always hinges from the thumb and as you go from upright to flat all we are really doing is changing the angle of the back hand. The thumb stills hinges back.".

Why don't you differentitate the wrist movement of "cocking" from the wrist movement of "hinging" when you describe the "setting of the wrists" during the backswing? The left wrist undergoes a cocking-up movement while the right wrist undergoes a back-hinging movement (dorsiflexion movement) during the mid-portion of the angled backswing.

See http://jeffmann.net/wrist.htm

Jeff.

cmays

You write-: "In an angle and flat swing the left thumb does not cock/hinge up, but around or otherwise you would have a upright swing, but the thumb performs the same action. There is no change of what the left thumb does from an anatomical point of view."

From my perspective, in an angle swing, the left wrist does cock up (as it does with an upright swing) - because as you stated "there is no change of what the left thumb does from ananatomical point of view". The only difference is the backswing plane is flatter in an angled swing due to left forearm rotation during the takeaway. That left forearm rotation pronates the left wrist, so that when the left wrist cocks up, the left thumb cocks up at angle determined by the degree of pronation. People who have too-flat a backswing usually over-rotate their left forerarm during the takeaway and that causes the back of the left hand to face the sky. Then, when they cock their left wrist, the cocking motion causes a movement in a near-horizontal plane (because their wrists are already pronated to a near-horizontal plane).

I don't think there are any secrets when it comes to getting to a good backswing plane, only basic swing fundamentals.

Jeff.