some more thoughts

how the arms can be used in the pendulum model. can they add more speed then the pivot alone

take a child and put them on a swing set. you are going to swing the child and the child is held in place at 9:00 before you swing the child, they will swing down to 6 and up to 3. While they are going down gravity and torque from the shoulders will propel them. can you assist those two with the arms as well?
3 options,
A. now you could just drop the child, gravity, shoulder turn and add no arm force, they will probably swing just past 3.

B. You cauld have the child drop from 9:00 while you stand by the bottom of the arc and try to apply help from the 7:30 position, the child is going fast by that time and you will be lucky to add 5% to the childs speed, so they will swing up slightly where they swung in option A

option C. You could stand at the top and push them as they dropped and pulled. At this point they are going the slowest and your help, along with gravity and the shoulders can propel them way past 3

throw from the top, the best way to add speed if you know how to do it right?

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always do something different, explore the possibilities, and enjoy the journey

Shootin, whilst I undertand the analogy you are trying to make, I'm thinking it's not quite accurate...

Given the golfers weight transfers backwards from address to top of backswing, then forwards again to follow through and finish position, in order for your swing set example to be spot on, the swing couldn't be firmly fixed to the ground and there would need to be some lateral movement of the fulcrum point back then forwards.

Yeah all right, I used to be a physics major in college....

Further, if you try to conciously throw it from the top, isn't that one of the causes of casting or coming over the top...???

Personally, I find the less I think about it, the better I hit it...

Just my 2c...

Cheers

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Look at the Target, Look at the Ball, Swing... Dr Bob Rotella...

Throw from the top? I think power from the bottom is where we should focus. The child swing analogy concentrates on the arms and shoulders which as Scragger suggest can create OTT and casting.

This "O" factor that has been discussed in another thread is a good way to consider creating power in the shot, it's not a new idea but explains the use of the lower and upper body well.

http://www.golf.com/golf/instruction

Hogan's 5 lessons tells it all, swing back and through under the pane of glass.
In today's language, turn your back to the target, keeping your core as the central point of coil, and, turn back through.

Lets break it down:

Wrists/forearms - could be used to provide more "punch" but IMO severe risk of flipping or hooking - I believe this is AJ Bonar's claim to fame

Elbows - would require a bent left arm at the top of the backswing and to be the most efficient the "release" of the elbow would have to coincide with the release of the wrists - so very late - have fun timing that - I believe this is called "lever power golf" by Jack Kendall (sp)

Deltoids - the actual muscles of the shoulder - to add additional force you would have to separate the lead arm from the chest - the average man could probably lift a small child with a straight arm so that the arm is level with the ground, this is not a very strong muscle (don't believe me watch a strong man competition ... very low weight for those guys and it is killer) - if you wanted to practice this techinque you would probably want to do Vijay's towel drill with a twist that you drop the towel just before impact so that separation is occuring.

Have fun shootin'

torque from the shoulders, which I did not explain fully is the beginning of the post, is the base on the ground puilling, because the shoulders are connected to the body, in the swing the left arm only knows what the shoulders are doing, even though the lower body helps to propel the swing. Yeah, I understand how many would think it is casting. If you have seen the likes of Mike austin swing you would see how far he hit it, how easily and effeciently he did as well. hogan himself said he wanted three right hands, because he used that to gain speed. As did same sneed as well. Tiger put an artilcle in golf digest over a year ago on how a new move of his was to rotate his right forearm. I understand this is a post that would have some concerns because this is not the conventional way. snead, hogan, tiger, and austin all used their arms and beleived the right hand added power.

standard address
take your right hand and cup it back. and then immediate from there rotate you right hand clockwixe while turning your body and what happens, you get the right hand tray position. Now shift and unrotate that, this will move the club down, and uncock the left wrist but the right wrist is still cupped, the left is flat
castin is coming over the top and more in relation to right shoulder movement rather then the hands releaeing. You have only lost your lag when your right wrist cup is completely lost.

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always do something different, explore the possibilities, and enjoy the journey

Maybe I am off here Shootin....but tell me if my understanding is what you were trying to explain....

If you try to accelerate TOO late in the swing, you are not going to generate any additonal speed at the time of impact. HOWEVER, if you start to accelerate at the 9pm mark (or when the "L" is reformed), you will max our your speed at the 6pm mark (the impact zone).

You dont accelerate from 12pm. You "touch the gas" to get it moving (ie: shift the weight to the left side). Once the weight is shifted and your arms "drop" you can hit the gas hard and start accelerating.

If I hit the gas at 7pm, I am not maxing out speed at impact.

What do we think of that?????

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What's in my bag....
Cleveland VP 2 Blade Putter
Ping Tour Wedges, 54 & 60
TaylorMade rac LT2, 4i thru PW
Tour Edge Exotics Iron-Wood 21* 3i - Aldila NV 90 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 18* 5 Wood - ProLaunch Blue 75 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 15* 3 Wood - Aldila NV 75 Stiff Shaft
Cleveland HiBore XL 9.5* - Fujikura Fit-On Red Stiff Shaft

you seem to understand what I am saying random.

Cool... Glad we have a similar thought process

They example of the "hill" is excellent.

I have really felt the effects of a proper pivot lately. By focusing on making a proper shoulder turn, building coil (while not RP'n) and then making the 1st move as a ROTATION of my left hip UP and LEFT.... I can feel my arms being pulled down while my right shoulder is working under my chin. I notice the increased speed I generate by starting my downswing with the proper rotation.

Now...as I get more comfortable with this, I feel that I can start to accelerate my swing EARLIER on, which will definately generate more clubhead speed WITH the power behind it. I wait until 9pm (or when the "L" is reformed) so that I know I am on plane and have properly transfered the weight.

I think those who are new to golf get in trouble by accelerating the hands and arms too early in the downswing. They do not pivot correctly, have no weight shift back to the left side, and basically throw their hands over the top and swat at the ball.

The "O-Factor" article from this month's Golf Magazine goes into this proper pivot & chain of events.

__________________
What's in my bag....
Cleveland VP 2 Blade Putter
Ping Tour Wedges, 54 & 60
TaylorMade rac LT2, 4i thru PW
Tour Edge Exotics Iron-Wood 21* 3i - Aldila NV 90 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 18* 5 Wood - ProLaunch Blue 75 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 15* 3 Wood - Aldila NV 75 Stiff Shaft
Cleveland HiBore XL 9.5* - Fujikura Fit-On Red Stiff Shaft

Many very confusing concepts being expounded upon here.
My advice:
1. Get a good pro who understands your goals
2. Take lessons in small increments
3. Practice what the pro teaches you until you can repeatedly perform the lessons
4. Play and practice alot
The concepts on this or any site are just very interesting but without a good teaching pro seeing your swing and your progression, I'm afraid there will be lots of disappointment.
Anyway, I still enjoy reading the posts and even after 40 years of playing, and maintaining my single digit handicap, I still see the pro every 3 months for a checkup.
Invest your money and time in lessons, you will not be disappointed.

fun little drill I was doing today. right hand only with a six iron. I did no pivot, the only thing I did was cup the right wrist back and rotate that right hand counter clockwise, this got it up to the tray position. I used ZERO pivot back and the smae amount down, kept the body still. WIth this motion only I was hitting the six 120 yards with good compression, using range balls into a 15 mph wind.

Hey TID
I am discussing it with those who want to discuss it.

Mr. Mays, I like the ball from the building analogy. If you do it right you cannot throw to hard from the top. You gotta watch the austin video, some of the things he says to his audience crack me up. He was a cocky SOB, but when your right your right.

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always do something different, explore the possibilities, and enjoy the journey

done incorectly of course it causes problems. The shift at the base of the spine, and the throw from the top, is why your longest hitters are so much longer then everyone else. People come over the top from faulty hips and shoulder movements going on improper plane. I have yet to see a person come over the top who had a good pivot.

being the first day I would not say I was effecient at it. I got a few to bounce on the edge of the green, whiich is 120, 137 to the pin 15 yards away. I would estimate that it would be to the pin if there was no wind and real balls. i could be wrong though. In the full swing I would imagine once I get hip high or so I will not be able to add anymore right arm, at that point it will be going for a ride. But on the one arm only swings it is going slow enugh to add right arm untill impact.

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always do something different, explore the possibilities, and enjoy the journey

I like that drill man that was eye opening. I got the wrist to roll by................... , well I will pm you on it so others can see for themselves

Never really thought of it that way.... When I practice my "L to L" shots (left arm gets to parallel on the backswing, then right arm gets to parallel on the follow-through) I can hit the ball about 70% of my normal distance. If I really POWER it with my arms and wrists, maybe 80%. I control it much better. So sometimes, esp into the wind, I will take 2 clubs more and hit that shot instead of trying to MUSCLE my normal club.

BUT....

My avg. drive is right around 275 yards. 70% of that number is 192.5 yards. So yes, my arms hit the ball 192.5 yards, but the lower body gives me that all important 82.5 extra yards.

My recent surge (in the last year) has dropped my handicap from a 13 to a 7. I am hitting more 3/4 shots, more wedges, and getting on in 2 on some of the shorter par 5s.

God I love this site....

__________________
What's in my bag....
Cleveland VP 2 Blade Putter
Ping Tour Wedges, 54 & 60
TaylorMade rac LT2, 4i thru PW
Tour Edge Exotics Iron-Wood 21* 3i - Aldila NV 90 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 18* 5 Wood - ProLaunch Blue 75 Stiff Shaft
Ping G5 15* 3 Wood - Aldila NV 75 Stiff Shaft
Cleveland HiBore XL 9.5* - Fujikura Fit-On Red Stiff Shaft