The Reverse K Set-up

Timothy Slaught · #1 (**permalink**) 09-12-2007, 02:27 AM

Hello All:

I often read quotes by the pros who say that they constantly work on their set-up positions. In fact, Jack Nicklaus has said many times that this was the most important part of his practice routine. At tour stops you will always see alignment aids (clubs usually) laid in various configurations by the players to help them set-up correctly. Oddly, or maybe not, I rarely see this at my local driving range.

I have been working on setting up in the reverse K position lately. I am making sure that I have a good amount of shoulder tilt with my left hip and shoulder higher than the right counterparts. I also make sure my head is behind the ball with all clubs and this is very apparent with the driver.

I bring this up because I had previously been setting up incorrectly. I had a good grip and spine angle forward with the chin up but I was too centered over the ball with my shoulders too level. My right arm would always feel like it was reaching too far for the ball which was a fact because my right shoulder was too high at address. The lateral tilt corrects this isue of the right hand being lower on the grip and this reaching issue.

As with most things in golf, this correct position felt very weird and uncomfortable to me as I began working on it. It is now feeling much more comfortable and I can really sense my shoulders begining and working on a better plane. This is also helping me load and retain flex in my right knee throughout the swing. My entire right side feels "softer" as I don't sense that I am reaching for the ball and setting my shoulders open. I really do believe the shoulders are the rudder of the swing and getting the set-up position correct has been very enlightening.

One additional note. I have always heard that there should be a very slight lateral bump of the legs and hips away from the target to begin the backswing. I have never been able to make that move correctly but with my "new" reverse K posture I am able to move nicely to my right side as I begin my take-away.

I would be interested in any comments regarding set-up positions.

Thanks as always.
Tim S

mont86 · #2 (**permalink**) 09-12-2007, 07:17 AM

Is there a link on the K to give me a visual ?

Thanks

Neil18 · #3 (**permalink**) 09-12-2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mont86

Is there a link on the K to give me a visual ?

Thanks

See Vijay Singh:

YouTube - Tiger Woods vs Vijay Singh

takinitdeep · #4 (**permalink**) 09-12-2007, 01:32 PM

I believe posture and flexibility will help most who struggle. Watch most high to mid handicappers set up to the ball and what do you see: 1. tension in the arms and hands,2. standing too far or too close to the ball, 3. head buried down in the chest, 4. poor alignment 5. poor weight distribution
That's just at address, imagine what that swing will be like if it starts like this.
Solution: imagine the arms and hands as loose as noodles and not forced straight, 2. get a distance from the ball which doesn't pull you forward to reach off balance nor one which handcuffs you on getting through, 3. keep your head high to allow the left shoulder to turn under your chin, 4. lay a cheater club across your feet and align parallel left of target, 5. distribute your weight around 60% on left foot for irons and 70% on right foot for woods.
Finally, when setting up to the ball, make sure you bend from the hips not the waist; the core must be activated. The core is below the belly button and above the pubic bone-it is lower than most think. Tight abs doesn't insure activation of the core. Hip flexors must be allowed to activate not the gut.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmays

In level shoulders which are not really level because the right hand is under the ball w/o the Reverse K, a person needs to make a lateral shift of the left shoulder at address so in the backswing the left shoulder comes under. Right Hander.

You maintain the left shoulder out in the backswing as if it was leaning on a wall. It allows the left shoulder to come under in the backswing.

You go into the hip turn in the backswing. The reason being, you need to have counter-balance and that is from the right hip going back in a lateral direction to the right at address, so you go into a hip turn.

Does the elastic band around the hip sound familiar?

Reverse K, the left hip is bumped outwards, where is the counter-balance, right shoulder.

You make your little lateral weight shift in the backswing and then turn which allows the hands to come up higher in the backswing. W/o the lateral movement you should find the hands and arms swaying more around the body. The lateral move allows the left shoulder to come under, otherwise you are just leaning way too far to the right.

We have the option of using shoulder-hip or hip-shoulder as long as you understand counter-balance.

Impact position is always the same for both.

In many golfers that are taking up the game you will see the hands way over to the right leg at address in which this causes a lifting action in the backswing with little chest turn and a lot of snapping of the wrist. The reason being, stand at 50-50 and do not make a hip or shoulder adjustment and the hands and wrist will release behind the ball and you are hitting fat. To me hands forward like that at address is a NO-No. Also you see the level shoulders.

Yes the shoulders are the rudder to the ship.

I show this with a 30 yard pitch shot.

Take a square stance and drop the left foot back, lay a club across the shoulders and you will see the shoulders open.

Drop the right foot back to square the stance, but notice the club across the shoulders, it remains open with the shoulders.

You grip the club, place it behind the ball and square up your shoulders from the open shoulder position, make your backswing and when you swing down in the downswing, the shoulders open way up and you pull the ball or you can cut across the ball depending on the clubface.

Drop the right foot back from a square stance, the shoulders are in a close position, then drop the left foot back to square the stance and you are in the push position, allow the hands and arms to rotate and now you draw the ball.

Both ways is a method that us old-timmers employed to work the ball.

We can say the feet controls the hips and the hips control the shoulders and the shoulders give us the greater turn which has more influence on swing path.

Looking at the 1 Plane and Two Plane Swings:

In the upright 2 plane swing we swing to waist high and up and around a little in the backswing, the clubhead remains out in front of the right elbow during the whole swing.

In the 1 plane swing you swing up to waist high, the club is then laid off at an angle in the backswing and the clubhead is allowed to come behind the right elbow.

Which hip action do you want when the clubhead is behind the right elbow? Will pulling down work?

In one type of swing you will have more of a lateral movement of the hips, less turning in the backswing so you can have more of a lateral movement in the downswing. Which One?, Why?

In a upright 2 plane swing which foot can you off-set just a little to prevent over-turning of the shoulders in the backswing and allowing the clubhead to go behind the right elbow?

In an angle swing we want the club behind the right elbow, more shoulder turn in the backswing, which foot can you off-set a little for this action?

How many ways can you off-set the feet?

With the little off-setting of the foot you will fall into a natural Reverse K or the left shoulder out position, but we do not want to off-set to the point of the little pitching test above.

Starting from a square stance is the way to go, maintaining that pure square stance at address are killing many golfers from the start, period.

You have 2 players, one is a upright and the other is an angle swinger and they do not have time to change their swings, to be put into what you teach, so one needs to know the differences.

ubizmo · #5 (**permalink**) 09-12-2007, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by takinitdeep

distribute your weight around 60% on left foot for irons and 70% on right foot for woods.
Finally, when setting up to the ball, make sure you bend from the hips not the waist; the core must be activated.

Amen.

Just these two details have made a huge difference for me. I had to see video to understand how poor my posture was. I now can get the right posture by feel, a feeling much like making a very formal bow to the ball, keeping my chest out. At first it felt very odd and exaggerated to do this, but now it feels exactly right. This is something emphasized a great deal by Ernie Els in his book How to Build a Classic Golf Swing. In fact, it's about the only really useful thing I got out of that book. I've mentioned the importance of the weight distribution thing for me in other threads; it is a Big Deal.

Timothy Slaught · #6 (**permalink**) 09-13-2007, 05:34 AM

Hello Guys:

Thanks for the feedback. (Cmays I get the feeling you sleep very little) ....Pithy and cryptic as usual but very informative as well.

Neil, the backswing clips demonstrate the point I was bringing up (me thinks) but I do believe both Tiger and Veeej set-up with the reverse K although veej is more demonsrative of this based on my research of video and still photos. Certainly, body demensions, swing theory and instruction all play in to a golfers senses as they address the ball. I believe your post validates what Cmays was explaining by way of where this leads both players to the top.

As I wrote in my original post, it is the set-up position that has me swinging on a better path, plane and most importantly rythym. It is hard to explain why this is helping my overall tempo but by feeling that my angles are correct to start the swing, I can feel a better flow to my takeaway. Apparently, the first 12 inches on the swing are a make or break point.

The reverse K set-up is very well described and visualized in the Swing Like a Pro instructional book. Jeff Mann has some clips from this book in his composite writings linked on this site. The premise is that the right arm and shoulder girdle should be set in a way that accomodates the right hand being lower on the grip by several inches. As any women can attest, a few inches makes a big difference. When you figure that the difference between a straight shot and one 40 yards off line is a matter of a fraction of the club face being square at impact or not, it makes sense to get things right from the start. ADDRESS. This is why the pros pay so much attention to this fact.

The main thing I sense as I have been working on this is that the right side is squeezed somewhat at address. You can clearly see this if you pay specific attention to this detail from a face on or behind shot of the pros at address. The down the line views do not show this. The golf swing is a three demensional activity therefor still photos can be misleading. This reverse K set-up will mimick what your body will be positioned like at impact much more so than an incorrect shoulder level, target leaning set-up.

Tim S.

takinitdeep · #7 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007, 02:16 PM

Golfone, check your inbox for private message.

BrianW · #8 (**permalink**) 09-14-2007, 10:54 PM

This all makes my head spin! Why do we concentrate so much on all these complex body movements and pay so little attention to how the club contacts the ball? The important thing is ball flight and how the clubface approaches, contacts then hits through the ball. The rest is of secondary consideration that by and large will take care of it's self.

takinitdeep · #9 (**permalink**) 09-15-2007, 01:03 AM

At address, I like those hip flexors to be activated; those are the pointy bones on either side far below the belly button. Chin up and a long spine with a slight tilt. So I have a spine angle forward and a spine angle to the right; keep that throughout the swing.
The chest really does control alot so shoulders back not stooped and the chest is free to turn. Stooped and chest is inhibited.
All this just loosens everything up including arms and hands-wrists so they can do their job.
The swing should not be handsy but those hands do alot in the swing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmays

Brian, I can see where you are coming from.

In defense, golfers come in all different sizes and shapes, physical handicaps and etc.

There is not one swing that fits all.

Too many golfers are giving up the game because they can not get the proper help. They have been fitted for the swing that fits all, become frustrated and toss the bag and clubs.

This is not knocking Jim Flick, he is old like me and I like watching and reading things he produces.

His solution for the shorter stocky person is to play the ball back in the stance, swing on a flatter plane and by the ball being placed back in the stance they feel the inside to out swing.

So he has that person striking the ball, it want go as far, but they make the clean hit.

If backswing arch is so important, then why do you want to shorten it both in the backswing and downswing having the ball back in the stance?

They go out, purchase a few 6 packs and have fun with the group. Nothing wrong with that. Just keep working on the short game.

Good advice when I was growing up, but now we are seeing par 4's over 500 yards long, plus some and why should the short and stocky person be limited in his/her pursuit of playing on the high school team or taking the free ride in college?

**I agree, if you do not have a problem do not read all this stuff or you could come down with Paralysis by Analysis.**

It is also nice to know if something breaks down how to fix it. I am human at times and I shanked a wedge the other day at the range, I knew why, should of stop the backswing. I can get out of square and the ball is further back and the inside out swing did not have time to rotate and the shank happen. Some of that was being in the wrong posture for the swing I was making.

What is nice? Not having to go through a bucket of balls to correct the problem.

I wish I had the skills of Takinitdeep, short and to the point, but for some reason I am more analytical.

kbp · #10 (**permalink**) 09-17-2007, 04:55 PM

Thanks TID and cmays. I, for one, appreciate it when you (and others) provide deeper insight.

BrianW · #11 (**permalink**) 09-17-2007, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmays

Brian, I can see where you are coming from.

In defense, golfers come in all different sizes and shapes, physical handicaps and etc.

There is not one swing that fits all.

Too many golfers are giving up the game because they can not get the proper help. They have been fitted for the swing that fits all, become frustrated and toss the bag and clubs.

This is not knocking Jim Flick, he is old like me and I like watching and reading things he produces.

His solution for the shorter stocky person is to play the ball back in the stance, swing on a flatter plane and by the ball being placed back in the stance they feel the inside to out swing.

So he has that person striking the ball, it want go as far, but they make the clean hit.

If backswing arch is so important, then why do you want to shorten it both in the backswing and downswing having the ball back in the stance?

They go out, purchase a few 6 packs and have fun with the group. Nothing wrong with that. Just keep working on the short game.

Good advice when I was growing up, but now we are seeing par 4's over 500 yards long, plus some and why should the short and stocky person be limited in his/her pursuit of playing on the high school team or taking the free ride in college?

**I agree, if you do not have a problem do not read all this stuff or you could come down with Paralysis by Analysis.**

It is also nice to know if something breaks down how to fix it. I am human at times and I shanked a wedge the other day at the range, I knew why, should of stop the backswing. I can get out of square and the ball is further back and the inside out swing did not have time to rotate and the shank happen. Some of that was being in the wrong posture for the swing I was making.

What is nice? Not having to go through a bucket of balls to correct the problem.

I wish I had the skills of Takinitdeep, short and to the point, but for some reason I am more analytical.

Cmays

Yes, of course it is better for guys like you is you have a system where you can locate and fix a fault without too much observation. I guess it is a case of horses for courses and many people will benefit from the advice you guys give. I am not rubbishing that in any way.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Register Now for FREE!
You have not yet registered on GTO. Sign up for FREE INSTANTLY and gain full access, just fill out the form below! Username: Password: Confirm Password: E-Mail: Confirm E-Mail: I agree to forum rules