golftuitiononline.com | Home
Home Forum Tips Gallery Blog Reviews Lessons Gym Staff Podcast
Register FAQ Links Events Arcade Mark Forums Read
Our golf forum has 72,593 discussions | 35,193 members | 15 online now | method978 has just joined the GTO golf forum

Go Back   Golf Forum | golftuitiononline.com > Golf Instruction > Golf Swing Instruction
User Name
Password Register


 

 


Welcome to golftuitiononline.com | the global golf forum

You are currently viewing our golf forum as a guest which gives you limited access to the many features available here at the GTO golf forum. We are one of the largest golf forums online with 35,193 members worlwide and we pride ourselves on being the friendliest golf forum online. JOIN NOW (It's FREE) and you will gain immediate access to all these great features:
  • FREE Golf Video Lessons: P.G.A. Golf Video Lessons
  • Forums: Many Golf Forums for Interesting Golf Discussion
  • Gallery: Golf Video/Photo Library
  • Blogs: Create your own Golf Blog/Journal to keep track of your golf
  • Gym: Golf Gym with some great exercise instruction
  • Reviews: All Latest Golf Equipment and Golf Course Reviews
  • Arcade: Relax and enjoy friendly competition with other members in the Games Arcade
  • P.G.A. Advice: Ask our P.G.A. Professionals for advice on any of our golf forums
Joining today will will give you full access to all these great features. Registration is instant, simple and absolutely free giving you access to a wealth of golf information. Join our golf forum today! and be part of the largest golf tuition forum online.

Register Now for FREE!
You have not yet registered on GTO. Sign up for FREE INSTANTLY and gain full access, just fill out the form below!

Username: Password: Confirm Password:
E-Mail: Confirm E-Mail:
  I agree to forum rules 

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2007, 04:51 PM
LowPost42's Avatar
My location
LowPost42 LowPost42 is offline
GTO Moderator
is a major contributor here at GTO, and is a valued member...
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,771
LowPost42 Has an unbeatable reputationLowPost42 Has an unbeatable reputation
Send a message via Yahoo to LowPost42
What do I do now?

I find myself in an interesting place.

I've made a few realisations lately and don't quite know what to do with it or where to go with it, but I thought I'd share here.

I'm certain that, coupled with good fundamentals and efficient practice of those fundamentals, that golf is a brain game.

I draw a lot on my experience with basketball (20 years or so as player, coach and referee) and can see a lot of parallels. Good fundamentals drilled properly allow a player to rely on athleticism to perform.

I've often heard that you can't hit a shot thinking mechanically. It certainly applies to basketball. Any time I'm thinking about what my body is doing, I can't hit a shot. The minute I focus on the target (back of the rim or corner of the backboard) shots start falling or coming close. I've found that even while shooting, I'll find that upon releasing the shot, I'll have a feel for its 'makeability' - which fingers were involved in the release - and be able to subsequently call make or miss (granted, lots of times I call out and it goes - just another vouch for the ability of the subconcious to make shots for me).

I find the same thing in my golf swing. I'll make a swing, and upon completion, I'll be aware of things that were 'off' in my swing. Now, I find that as long as I get my arms into position and make sure I turn all the way through, there's nothing to think about. But fat one, and I'll immediately feel that I either 'held back' and didn't transfer my weight, or stopped turning; and I'll be conciously aware of it.

Now, I've had long stretches of ball where I just 'target focus and shoot', and short stretches of golf where I just 'target focus and swing'. In basketball, some of my best stat days (triple doubles [pts, rebs, blks], and plenty of double doubles [pts, rebs]) came when I was ball focused on D and hoop focused when shooting on O.

I've even got a couple golf memories where I was completely target absorbed (eagle from 145 out, 12" and 10" to the pin on two different par 3's) and simply swung the club. Each of the above instances the ball flight is NOT what I had envisioned (interestingly, the first two were pull-slices and the second was a half-thinned screamer), but still ended up near the target. I wasn't trying to do anything in the swing, just trusting myself to turn back and turn through.

Part of this has been sparked by an article on the Tour website talking about how the 'off season' is coming for most and how a game breakdown and re-evaluation is in order. The first part of the recommendation was things like 'putting, short game, short irons, mid irons, long irons, fairways, driver.' Then it suggested going even deeper like '3 footers, uphill, downhill, left to right, right to left, double breakers'... and even into the swing for things like 'setup, takeaway, halfway back, top of the swing, transition, downswing, impact, throughswing, finish'...

Quite a statement on how the golf swing is taught. When I first started golfing, I assume I was very baseballish in my approach. I remember being told that I was too bent over (and I was - but I was trying to get my arms off my gut), and I had a gigantic hip slide and hit with my arms and hands a lot. I wasted quite a bit of time trying to figure stuff out on my own. I bounced around from theory to theory and got caught up in the little detail things in the swing - things I can look back at and realise that they're either a) inconsequential, b) largely uncontrollable, or c) taken care of automatically if other things are performed correctly (good fundamentals).

It has occured to me that solid fundamentals remove the need for swing thoughts. It removes the need for being an 'active participant' in the golf swing. A good setup position and fundamentally sound movements in the swing allow for things like a brainless/golfer 2 swing to work.

I've learned that a second set of eyes is most helpful in pointing out little things. I had no idea I was a 'reacher' until it was pointed out to me. It could very well be that it has been pointed out to me before, but inconsistent ball striking will help you listen to advice

I'm certain that this reaching (in order to circumvent my gut) caused some problems, especially when coupled with standing too upright. So moving to truly relaxed and hanging arms (tension free) have made a huge difference in the passive arms area - now that they're in a fundamentally sound position.

I'm sure this is starting to get closer to a ramble. It seems to me that overthinking the swing is necessary if your swing is complicated. If you're out of position early and often. If your fundamentals are poor. I'm not saying I've got it all figured out and I'm going to shoot 72 tomorrow (as a 23 handicap). Rather, as a 23, it seems to me that solid fundamentals coupled with a strong target focus may be a good way to play. This is my intended direction. The quandary that follows is the conversation I had with myself the other night. I had time to get out for 4 or 5 holes, to go and work on my fundamentals (proper setup, turn back, set arms, turn all the way through). Then it occured to me to work on this, perhaps a range trip would be better. Then it occured to me that since I really only needed to ensure my setup was good, and that I turned all the way through, perhaps I simply needed to spend some time going through those motions at home. Then it occured to me that while that's a good idea, perhaps seeing the resultant ball flight may be good. Then I waffled between trying to simplify the practice (work on the body movement) or hitting balls to a target (as at the range I would also be working on my PSR and being target oriented). Ultimately, I came to no decision. Drawing on my basketball experience, hammering balls focused on proper body motion is akin to shooting a ball at a wall focusing on your motion. Perhaps I need to augment this idea - hit 15 balls focused on my motion, take a small break, then hit 5 balls focused on my target and trusting my motion. Rinse and repeat. I'm all ears as to an efficient way to get a body motion trusted.

The other issue is that I've gotten quite used to 'nit picking' my swing - but I think I'll be leaving it alone for a while and do more along the lines of monitoring my fundamentals. So what do I focus on now?

Now, I know I'm going to take a little heat for posting this message and then struggling to implement. But it's easy to make some realisations - it's that implementation that's a little tougher.
__________________
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

Last edited by LowPost42; 09-22-2007 at 04:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2007, 05:35 PM
Martin Levac Martin Levac is offline
Member
is a major contributor here at GTO, and is a valued member...
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 448
Martin Levac has an average reputation 5/10
Re: What do I do now?

The motor cortex works best when the ego doesn't interfere. The ego, the conscious self, works best when it deals with purpose and goals.

When we learn something new, we teach the motor cortex to execute it by first executing the movement slowly and by repeating it several times. This is the learning period and the ego does interfere with the motor cortex in order to teach it what to do and how to do it. But when it's time to execute the movement at full speed, the ego must not interfere with the motor cortex otherwise it will slow it down or worse, introduce mistakes in the execution. Ever hear of the expression "it's become second nature to me"? This expression implies that no thought goes in the execution of the deed because it has been learned and practiced to perfection. Well perhaps one thought "do" or a more complex thought "do this" or an even more complex thought "do this like that".

You see, the ego requires validation before it can continue to its next thought in the chain. The motor cortex doesn't need validation for every little detail, it simply executes. It is for this reason that the ego works best when it deals with purpose and goals. It sets a goal, tells the motor cortex to execute, waits for it to finish, observes the result and validates. If we had to do that for every single motion we execute during the swing, we'd have a hard time finishing it in time for dinner. Not only that, we'd surely introduce errors in its execution because of the inherent doubtful nature of the ego.

Good teachers know about all this and don't bother the student with deep analysis. Not at first anyway. Instead, they know what to say to produce the intended result without having told the student how it works.

The motor cortex needs to know how it works before it can execute it. But it doesn't need it explained every single time. Once is enough. It doesn't have to learn it explicitly and verbally in every detail, it can learn how it works simply by executing it. It can handle it. Alternatively, the eyes are the most effective path to the motor cortex. Monkey see, monkey do.

Last edited by Martin Levac; 09-22-2007 at 09:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2007, 09:44 PM
ubizmo's Avatar
ubizmo ubizmo is offline
Member
is a major contributor here at GTO, and is a valued member...
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 652
ubizmo has an average reputation 5/10
Re: What do I do now?

As a friendly terminological assist, "Id" is a Freudian term for the unconscious mind, repository of repressed sexual desires and the like. I suppose Freud would agree that you should keep your Id out of your golf swing, since if you don't you might get arrested.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2007, 09:49 PM
Martin Levac Martin Levac is offline
Member
is a major contributor here at GTO, and is a valued member...
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 448
Martin Levac has an average reputation 5/10
Re: What do I do now?

Thanks for the correction, I'll edit my text so it's clear what I mean.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2007, 10:00 PM
BrianW's Avatar
BrianW BrianW is offline
Member
is a major contributor here at GTO, and is a valued member...
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3,447
BrianW Has an unbeatable reputation
Re: What do I do now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ubizmo View Post
As a friendly terminological assist, "Id" is a Freudian term for the unconscious mind, repository of repressed sexual desires and the like. I suppose Freud would agree that you should keep your Id out of your golf swing, since if you don't you might get arrested.
But then again, Freud never hit 5 shanks in a row, did he?
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2007, 11:04 PM
LowPost42's Avatar
My location
LowPost42 LowPost42 is offline
GTO Moderator
is a major contributor here at GTO, and is a valued member...
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 4,771
LowPost42 Has an unbeatable reputationLowPost42 Has an unbeatable reputation
Send a message via Yahoo to LowPost42
Re: What do I do now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
But then again, Freud never hit 5 shanks in a row, did he?
My PB for S in a row is 3 while playing, 3 while practicing full shots, 8 while practicing half shots, and 12 while practicing chipping.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2007, 11:36 PM
BrianW's Avatar
BrianW BrianW is offline
Member
is a major contributor here at GTO, and is a valued member...
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 3,447
BrianW Has an unbeatable reputation
Re: What do I do now?

I think if most of us stood on the edge of a green with a ball in our hand then tossed it at the hole we would be pretty good at getting it close. When we have a stick thing with a lumpy bit on the end and have to bash it to the hole it gets a whole lot more difficult, probably because the stick thing is not part of our anatomical make up and more difficult for our motor cortex to make offset calculations for.

Now lets consider the stick thing was a tennis racquet and we wanted to hit a ball moving towards us to a particular sector of a tennis court, how would we go about that. We would probably not start considering how we rotated our hips, or shoulders, or elbows, or wrists. We would consider the path the racquet took to the ball, the speed that we moved the racquet and how we needed to rotate the face to achieve the required shot. We would also have set a spatially aware image of the target in our mind.

The norm in golf would be to concentrate on how we stand, grip the club, align ourselves, make many complex and inter-related body movements that progress us towards swinging the stick at and through the ball.

Maybe we could learn something from other ball games and release ourselves from our golfing straight jackets
__________________
Best Regards
Brian

________________________________
Funny o'l game!

Last edited by BrianW; 09-22-2007 at 11:39 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2007, 11:13 AM
oldwease oldwease is offline
Member
is a major contributor here at GTO, and is a valued member...
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 184
oldwease Has a good reputation 7/10
Re: What do I do now?

Excellent post - sums up the torment that most golfers go through in this game.

I think you're right when you say that everything starts and ends with good fundamentals. I always think of my own experience in the music world. You learnt to play instruments to a high standard by endless repetition - to the extent that scales, etc, become totally automatic. At first, your brain thinks 'what comes next, where should my fingers be?' then, one magic day, you just walk up to play the instrument and those scales are so fast and fluid your brain actually moves on elsewhere. That's the 'eureka moment', the point at which you realise all that practice has paid off and you can be quite good at this. (You also find, incidentally, that if you let the conscious brain 'reimpose itself' when playing those fluid passages, your accuracy and fluidity break down.)

It's the same with golf, as far as I'm concerned. The problem is, though, that in golf there's more than one way to do things hence the endless temptation to meddle with what you have. Looking back, that's been my biggest error over the years. Even if I've been hitting the ball great, I'm still a sucker for thinking 'if I change this, I may get a bit more.....'. What I should be doing is focusing on the scoring side solely, course management and so on.

For the past couple of years, I've really not looked at all of these 'new magic move' articles in magazines and elsewhere. Who cares what Tiger's great secret is? Good for him - it surely doesn't apply to me and my game. So, I now just stick to my game and the key points that I have in relation to that. Sure helps....
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 09-24-2007, 10:14 AM
Neil18's Avatar
Neil18 Neil18 is offline
Member
is a major contributor here at GTO, and is a valued member...
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: England
Posts: 628
Neil18 Has an unbeatable reputation
Re: What do I do now?

Hi all,

Two things stick out at me from this thread so far:

1) Lowpost is absolutely correct when he says that golf is a brain game. He's in a good place at the moment (although somewhat confusing at times!).

Although good fundamentals are, well, good, that alone does not allow a free flowing, effortless but powerful swing to happen.

Good fundamentals (please let's not start another debate on what fundamentals are) are only useful when coupled with a correct mental image of the swing.

By this I mean, for example, that one can swing the club in a horrible way easily when it's built upon poor fundamentals. One can then change posture grip and alignment but still swing the club in a poor manner.

Good fundamentals don't mean anything if a body engages the wrong muscles/motion at the wrong time. Then it doesn't matter how you stand.

2) Something BrianW wrote in his post set off an alarm bell in my head. Something about tossing ball to a hole on a green accurately, then making the task difficult by placing a club in ones hand. He said that:

"........the stick thing is not part of our anatomical make up and more difficult for our motor cortex to make offset calculations for".

True.

This is why taking a proper grip is so important. A proper grip should feel as though you've only got one hand on the club, and that the club simply becomes an extension of the left arm.

When gripped correctly, the club feels like part of you and is instantly more controllable "feelable" as a result.

The grip, for me, is the biggest fundamental people get wrong. It's the most important fundamental. It dictates how the body swings the club to get the face square at impact. To illustrate my point above, one can change the grip to a good one, but the body can still try to swing the club the "old" way because that's what it's used to, and that's what we see in our minds eye. That's why when we go to have a lesson, a pro may change a fundamental from poor to good, but then we proceed to get worse because our body is trying to swing the club in a manner that doesn't match the fundamental. We quickly slip back to our old routines.

In summary, a changed fundamental will point the body in the right direction, but if the brain tries to move the old way, the changed fundamental is made redundant. The mental picture of the swing must also change to make best use of the fundamentals employed.

1) Get the grip right.

2) Get the mental imagery of the swing right.

Lowpost, in terms of making sure your fundamentals are correct at practice, then forgetting them and playing to a target, you are spot on. Even with flawed motion, thinking of your target will greatly increase your chances of hitting it. It won't happen every time, but it will happen more often than thinking about your left arm, right foot, or what's for dinner.

As creatures of habit, we must practice hitting to a target, as well as all the necessary moves to allow us to hit to a target. Two separate things to practice there, but neither should be neglected.
__________________
Luke: I don't believe it!
Yoda: That is why you fail.

Last edited by Neil18; 09-24-2007 at 10:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT. The time now is 06:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.0.0
© 2008 golftuitiononline.com