Maintaining the spine angle

takinitdeep · #1 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 04:24 PM

Stack and tilt, one plane or two plane etc. Nothing works if you don't maintain the spine angle throughout the bs and ds.
There can be alot of different ways to swing but keeping the spine angle level is the key to making impact happen correctly.
Thoughts?

oldwease · #2 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 04:35 PM

Absolutely....

http://www.golf-tuition-online.com/g...l#post10542556 (What Really Matters? – Immutable Laws of the Swing)

ubizmo · #3 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 04:38 PM

...unless you have the magic of changing the spine angle twice, returning it to the starting angle at impact.

Magic aside, I agree.

The spine angle is one of (but not the only) determinants of the swing radius. If you change the swing radius the club face isn't going to return to the ball in the right place.

It also determines the length of the backswing, because we should only take the club back as far as we can go without changing the spine angle. That's not just a question of flexibility either. It's also about proprioception and control. I could take my club back pretty far if I didn't have to hit a damn golf ball with it.

BrianW · #4 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 04:45 PM

Yes, Oldwease made the same point recently and it is correct.

I don't wish to seem overcooking this

But I am just about sold on the 3SKs school of thought that if total focus is placed on the correct route of the clubface through impact these things will be correct anyway.

If I drew a white line near the base of a tree, then gave you an axe and asked you to swing the axe so that you cut into the white line a few times, would you consider your spine angle when swinging the axe?

I think golfers have problems with their spine angle because they do not understand clearly how they should be hitting a golf ball. Their desire to get the ball in the air makes them lift at impact in an attempt to hit under the ball.

Swaying and reverse pivot are caused the same way.

oldwease · #5 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 05:25 PM

That's right - and if you were to swing an axe into a tree, you would surely rotate to generate the power and not look to do all of the other things which get caught up with the golf swing.

ubizmo · #6 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianW

I think golfers have problems with their spine angle because they do not understand clearly how they should be hitting a golf ball. Their desire to get the ball in the air makes them lift at impact in an attempt to hit under the ball.

Swaying and reverse pivot are caused the same way.

I think that's one reason why they have trouble. One of the very important ideas in the 3SK book is to banish the thought "get under the ball" from the mind. But I'm not convinced that things such as swaying and changing the spine angle are always caused by lack of understanding or even lack of intention. I think there's also the simple matter of control of the body, which varies a lot from person to person.

BrianW · #7 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubizmo

I think that's one reason why they have trouble. One of the very important ideas in the 3SK book is to banish the thought "get under the ball" from the mind. But I'm not convinced that things such as swaying and changing the spine angle are always caused by lack of understanding or even lack of intention. I think there's also the simple matter of control of the body, which varies a lot from person to person.

Tod,

I think you are missing my point. What I mean is that in most cases when someone was to swing an object at another like an axe at a tree, A sledge hammer at a bolt etc they have to rotate keep the object on plane and control their posture etc but in nearly every other case no conscious thought is put into the positions of body parts, rather you concentrate on the point of contact.

In Golf it seems more difficult and I can only surmise that is because people are not clear on what kind of contact is required, the natural urge is to hit under the ball which causes lifting and swaying.

oldwease · #8 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubizmo

I think that's one reason why they have trouble. One of the very important ideas in the 3SK book is to banish the thought "get under the ball" from the mind. But I'm not convinced that things such as swaying and changing the spine angle are always caused by lack of understanding or even lack of intention. I think there's also the simple matter of control of the body, which varies a lot from person to person.

I would agree with that; not everybody has the same natural aptitude or co-ordination.

I suppose we don't want every thread to turn back into a discussion on the 3SK's, but at least that book gives a clear focus on an important aspect of the swing. It's not a complete instruction manual, however, and there are some things which you could do in a swing that would make striking the ball properly very difficult to achieve (for example, changing your spine angle - to get back to the header topic).

BrianW · #9 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldwease

I would agree with that; not everybody has the same natural aptitude or co-ordination.

I suppose we don't want every thread to turn back into a discussion on the 3SK's, but at least that book gives a clear focus on an important aspect of the swing. It's not a complete instruction manual, however, and there are some things which you could do in a swing that would make striking the ball properly very difficult to achieve (for example, changing your spine angle - to get back to the header topic).

I don't want to harp on about 3Sk's but I guess that its made me rethink things such that I cannot consider such topics without considering how the body is controlled in the swing other than from an inverse viewpoint.

It makes perfect sense to me to consider that the prime task is to make contact with the ball and how the body is manipulated will be as a consequence and needs less consideration than has been traditionally used. And I say that as someone who has previously been an advocate of the importance of swing mechanics.

Addendum:

Just to clarify, I wholly agree that maintaining spine angle is important to allow good ball contact and that it should be achieved as long as the task of striking the ball is executed correctly.

takinitdeep · #10 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 09:34 PM

That's why by staying stable from the waist down, one can have a better chance of not moving the spine angle all over the place.
Stand with your butt cheeks against a wall and swing a club back, feel the right cheek dominate by touching the wall the most. Swing through and feel the left cheek touching the wall. That's why the followthrough should be a two cheeks visible from behind picture.
Take a chair to the range, take your address with the chair touching your cheeks and swing making sure at no time does one of your cheeks leave the chair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmays

In the normal type of swings if you pick the club up you lose the spine angle and have and have defeated your upper body turn.

If you bring the hands in too far in the backswing and you are forced to lift up and you change your spine angle.

In Stack and Tilt you have pre-set the left shoulder and if you pick up on the club or try to swing too far to the inside it is not going to happen because yo have pre-established the rocking action of the swing. There is also the locking in of the knees to prevent the sway.

Spine angle at address is not that important if you understand how to work it, but whatever you start out with at address you want to keep in the downswing process.

Is Stack and Tilt the best swing. No! All swings have their on problems.

What Stack and Tilt does for the not so advance, allows them to lock the body parts, very hard to make any major mistakes, they can learn the swing process much faster and then you can work them out of Stack and Tilt. All of that time they are not chasing the ball all over the fairway. People have never been taught that body parts can be locked in, the mistakes can be reduced and they fight change.

My answer is yes spine angle is important to maintain, but the spine angle at address can vary and if you stand straight up like Morrison or Boomer you better know about the grip.

If I say something about all the drills and devices on the market I will get attack, so I will keep my mouth shut, but I also teach a form of locking in.

Look around at the number of players that has been player for 5 years or more and there high handicaps.

This is not a physical sport and you know that from your grip by what you told me in the past and what you teach to everyone.

bill reed · #11 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 09:51 PM

hi
the spine angle is very important to understand to know if you swing on a one plane or a two plane and also how you relate the ball to where your spine is, with the driver the ball is ahead off the spine and ahead of the bottom of the ark of the swing so you swing up into the ball, with mid irons the ball is almost in line with the spin and close to the bottom of the ark and you sweep more into the ball, with the short iron the ball is behind the spine and the club has not reached the bottom of the ark when it meets the ball. how far you spine leans over also changes your swing. an upright two plane swing the arms lift up more than the shoulders and give you a steeper blow into the ball, when you bend over more with a one plane swing the arms are more in line with the shoulders and you have a flatter plane and sweep more into the ball. if you understand the importance of the spine then you will set up better to the ball and if your set up is wrong i don't think even 3 skills can help you be consistent at ball striking.
bill

BrianW · #12 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill reed

hi
the spine angle is very important to understand to know if you swing on a one plane or a two plane and also how you relate the ball to where your spine is, with the driver the ball is ahead off the spine and ahead of the bottom of the ark of the swing so you swing up into the ball, with mid irons the ball is almost in line with the spin and close to the bottom of the ark and you sweep more into the ball, with the short iron the ball is behind the spine and the club has not reached the bottom of the ark when it meets the ball. how far you spine leans over also changes your swing. an upright two plane swing the arms lift up more than the shoulders and give you a steeper blow into the ball, when you bend over more with a one plane swing the arms are more in line with the shoulders and you have a flatter plane and sweep more into the ball. if you understand the importance of the spine then you will set up better to the ball and if your set up is wrong i don't think even 3 skills can help you be consistent at ball striking.
bill

Bill,

What I am trying to covey is that if you make good contact and ball flight do you need to be concerned with your spine angle? OR the fact that you are making good contact does that infer that your spine angle is OK anyway.

I think the idea that you can forget about these things and only concentrate on what the club does as it approaches, contacts and leaves the ball is difficult for people to contemplate and sounds rather simplistic and heretical. Really it just means considering these things from a more lateral viewpoint. If your swing is not striking the ball on the sweetspot and is not making ball then turf contact then a probable cause is loss of spine angle, if you were to work on getting the right ball/turf contact then it would probably improve spine angle retention without actually considering it.

You said:

"if you understand the importance of the spine then you will set up better to the ball and if your set up is wrong i don't think even 3 skills can help you be consistent at ball striking."

3 Sk's can help you here in the same way as you suggest but by a different way of thinking. For example: If you were hitting a nail with a hammer and you started missing it, would you start considering what was happening with your shoulder/elbow/wrist or would you concentrate on the path the hammer was taking to the nail and try again? You certainly would not go and get coaching from a carpenter

bill reed · #13 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 11:02 PM

hi Brian
i hear what your saying but you still have to know what your doing wrong, know how to grip the club and how to set up to the ball. if you already have a good basic knowledge then what you say is right but if you don't know the basics then i don't think 3 skills will cure you of not having that knowledge.
i do understand the good points of 3 skills and I'm not trying knock it, but i do think its a system that will work for most people but not all.
bill

BrianW · #14 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill reed

hi Brian
i hear what your saying but you still have to know what your doing wrong, know how to grip the club and how to set up to the ball. if you already have a good basic knowledge then what you say is right but if you don't know the basics then i don't think 3 skills will cure you of not having that knowledge.
i do understand the good points of 3 skills and I'm not trying knock it, but i do think its a system that will work for most people but not all.
bill

Bill,

Please try to detach the discussion a bit from the words 3 skills and more to what I am actually saying.

We have not specified this discussion to be targeted at beginners, it was more about maintaining spine tilt on the BS and FS. It was also not aimed at whether 3SK's would benefit most people, good ball contact will benefit everyone.

Please can we consider my proposition that if the swingpath and contact are implemented correctly then things like spine angle will be OK anyway.

bill reed · #15 (**permalink**) 09-28-2007, 11:25 PM

hi Brian
you could say the same if you get the spine right then the shoulders swing round the spine and will come back on plane and give you clean contact. i think if your really tried you could make a point of a lot of things done right can give you that sweet hit or just one.
depends on the person and how they swing. we are all so different and we all take things in different ways that why some things work for you but not for me or the the other way round.
putting the club face on the ball square and on the sweep spot is every ones goal and there are so many different ways to do that, there not a right way or a wrong way only the one that works for you.
i know you have found your way.
i think we are saying the same only coming at it from a different view.
cheer bill

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