fade and draw

Cly · #16 (**permalink**) 07-26-2006, 11:16 AM

I think that as I line the ball up inside my left heal It feels as if I am farther away from the ball than I am when I have it back in my stance.I almost feel that I am reaching out to hit it.I understand that I should be able to produce these shots,and I just need to play them and try and make it apart of my game.There are so many instructions on ball position and everything.But I see some of the swings of pro players and think to myself how in the heck is this guy this good with a swing like that..Just like I was watching the open this past weekend and seen that the guys that scored well(compared to the field)worked the ball from right to left or left to right to hit fairways and greens..Next time I go to the range I will try and pinpoint what makes me draw and fade with the driver and try and bring it to the course..with my irons my normal shot is a fade and when I want to draw the ball I just turn my left wrist in..(clockwise on the shaft) I will work on things myself this year and maybe seek some help from a pro.I hope to break 80 soon.....

Cly

Golf Monkey · #17 (**permalink**) 07-26-2006, 12:30 PM

Some good advice there, especially with regard to the dissection of the fairway.

For my two peneth, I would say that if you can repeatedly achieve draw with the driver then you are doing a whole lot right. Perhaps consider the line your club take through the ball, (far easier to control with a smooth, controlled swing) and use that to increase your accuracy when hitting for the centre of the fairways. messing about with ball position between your feet will only make you lose your consistancy.

shootin4par · #18 (**permalink**) 07-26-2006, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edshaw

OK, and I'm not too sure what separation is.
A force vector is the amount of force delivered to the ball
by the mass of the clubhead. The clubhead is moving in
three directions: toward the target (that's the big one) toward the
ground (until it bottoms out, then it moves towards the sky) and
towards the ball or target line (until it reaches its farthest point out,
hopefully the ball, at which point its direction becomes that of away from the target line, towards the golfer. What you call the line of attack, I
think, is the first vector. The secondary is what you call the angle
of attack. The third vector is the one than produces either right to
left or left to right spin. As the cluhead travels down the target line
at 100 mph, I think it also travels toward the target line at about
15 mph. I'd have to look. It is also traveling toward the ground at about
the same, 15 mph, and those secondary forces are not incidental. They
are enough to influence ball flight considerably. Obviously, the direction
of mass that has the greatest influence delivers force forward, toward the
target.

The downward movement of club mass as
it contacts the ball is the one that produces backspin.
The big vector, that's the {(100 mph)squared times mass] force vector,
is the one that produces mainly forward motion of the ball, but
is also a significant factor in backspin when it contacts the ball
below the equator, as it certainly does with the lofted irons, and
that big vector also can most certainly create sidespin,
in those cases in which it sideswipes the ball either from the outside in (slice) or inside out (hook.)
You identify open, closed, or square (to the target line, I think) clubface
as a factor, and it certainly is a factor. However, it has been
argued that Dr. Wiren may have overstated the effect of face
angle (open or closed) as a factor in hook or slice spin.
I hope you understand I am not trying to sound like a rocket scientist here
and understand that any of these ideas are open to debate. I have put a lot of thought into this issue. Assuming a correct arc and knowing
the clubhead speed and mass, all these factors can be calculated
and such things as expected distance and degree of curve are
predictable.

seperation is when the ball leaves the club face. because in the 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch that the club is in contact with the ball the face can rotate, and the path can change, the angle can change, all three of those will not happen a whole lot but the one that can change the most is clubhead speed can decelerate if you have bad impact condition

edshaw · #19 (**permalink**) 07-27-2006, 12:08 AM

OK, I see. Thanks for the comment.

bill reed · #20 (**permalink**) 07-27-2006, 11:05 PM

hi edshaw
i think a major factor is also what club you use, if its a 7,8,9,w,s then the back spin over comes the side spin more, with a 6,5,4,3,2,1 then the side spin is stronger. lot of good points given and has me thinking
bill

edshaw · #21 (**permalink**) 07-28-2006, 01:47 AM

Bill: My opinion is that your assessment is exactly correct. I am in awe of golfers who draw the ball into the target with a wedge. Actually, by my reasoning, it is possible those players are achieving left to right spin by a closed face on the target line. I say that for two reasons: one, as you say, all that backspin overcomes the sidespin. Two, the arc, which I think may be described as the part circle with the body axis at the center, is so much shorter with a wedge than a driver. That's significant because most of the clubhead travel towards the target line occurs after the point at which the golfers hands are about waist high. With the steeply inclined, slower moving, wedge, that distance can be as little as 14"-16" unlike the driver, where it is in feet. As has been pointed out, and I agree, all this information may be way too technical for, really no use to, most golfers. That is, the value in this knowledge may no necessarily lead to lowere scores.

shootin4par · #22 (**permalink**) 07-28-2006, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edshaw

Bill: My opinion is that your assessment is exactly correct. I am in awe of golfers who draw the ball into the target with a wedge. Actually, by my reasoning, it is possible those players are achieving left to right spin by a closed face on the target line. I say that for two reasons: one, as you say, all that backspin overcomes the sidespin. Two, the arc, which I think may be described as the part circle with the body axis at the center, is so much shorter with a wedge than a driver. That's significant because most of the clubhead travel towards the target line occurs after the point at which the golfers hands are about waist high. With the steeply inclined, slower moving, wedge, that distance can be as little as 14"-16" unlike the driver, where it is in feet. As has been pointed out, and I agree, all this information may be way too technical for, really no use to, most golfers. That is, the value in this knowledge may no necessarily lead to lowere scores.

I fixed a kid today who was hitting about a 7 yard draw with his wedge, a 1 yard faint draw with a wedge is ok, IMHO, but he was doing tooo much. He did this by having the ball behind center, close to the back foot, and shutting the club down too fast, he also delofted the club. Changed a few things and he was hitting pure throughout his bag.

bill reed · #23 (**permalink**) 07-28-2006, 12:13 PM

hi edshaw
yes i agree with you about to much info can be confusing to many including me lol.
i find to hit a draw with a wedge, i keep it simple and shut the club face to aim at pin and set up with ball near to toe of club more ie not sweet spot,
line body up so i aim about 6 to 10 yards right of pin depending on how much i want to draw it. i swing along line i face. dont change swing only face of club and never try and swing more than 90%
no control at 100%.
well done shootin4par i'm sure he will hit it more consistanly now and be more relaxed hitting a shot he knows now works.
bill

shootin4par · #24 (**permalink**) 07-28-2006, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill reed

well done shootin4par i'm sure he will hit it more consistanly now and be more relaxed hitting a shot he knows now works.
bill

thanks bill,
with a kid like this it is all set up adjustments and in five minutes he has me looking pretty goood

edshaw · #25 (**permalink**) 07-28-2006, 04:41 PM

That's a great story, S4P. What I like is that the kid leaves feeling good about his basic swing, which you must have felt was in pretty good condition, and not all bummed that he has to rebuild this and that. Hey, I'm new to this forum but I think we ought to pat ourselves on the back for having critical discussions about the swing. I know it has already affected my game. So many players were saying distance is a frame of mind, I got more or less persuaded to go for more off the tee. I cranked the shoulders another two or three inches, made sure I had a good left arm extension (all to increase the arc) and let er go. OK, I was in one adjoining fairway and a couple of roughs, but, yes, I did pop a few 240-250 yarders. If you recall, I am in the habit of being satisfied with 210-220. Oh, yeah, I got close to 240 out on one of the par fives, which is not on on two range for me, but a hell of a lot closer than I usually am. So, thanks for the help, contributors.

bill reed · #26 (**permalink**) 07-28-2006, 04:51 PM

hi edshaw
swing at 80/90% and hit it on sweep spot and it goes further as it runs on the fairway, it dont run in the rough. as aftford has pointed a lot of times you can hit par with a 5 iron of the tee instead of driver.
best of luck
bill

shootin4par · #27 (**permalink**) 07-29-2006, 04:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edshaw

That's a great story, S4P. What I like is that the kid leaves feeling good about his basic swing, which you must have felt was in pretty good condition, and not all bummed that he has to rebuild this and that.

thanks ed.

I can tell you I had a very satisfied feeling becasue I asked him if I overwhelmed him, his quote was, "no, it is all minor" which that was my goal but it made a major change.

slater170 · #28 (**permalink**) 07-29-2006, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cly

I am having problems with my driver(like everyone else) I have been trying to work on my tempo.My usual swing speed is just over 100mph.I have been trying to slow that down to gain control.It seems that I hit the ball just as far with a nice smooth swing.My problem is that If I line up to the ball and play it inside left heal I seem to fade the ball(25 to 30 yards) I tryed to position the ball back alittle and then I tend to draw or pull it left still about 25 to 30 yards.I am getting tired of the aim for the middle and hope for the best mentality. Would appreciate any thoughts.

Cly

i have been playing golf for just over 18 months
my natural shot shape was fade/slice but now after getting advice on this site and finding right grip,posture,stance,ball position,weight transfer,having a good repeatable preshot routine,going to the gym,doing more stretching exercises,buying custom fitted clubs..............
i now have a nice little draw!

shootin4par · #29 (**permalink**) 07-29-2006, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slater170

i have been playing golf for just over 18 months
my natural shot shape was fade/slice but now after getting advice on this site and finding right grip,posture,stance,ball position,weight transfer,having a good repeatable preshot routine,going to the gym,doing more stretching exercises,buying custom fitted clubs..............
i now have a nice little draw!

that is great to hear slater

slater170 · #30 (**permalink**) 07-29-2006, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shootin4par

that is great to hear slater

cheers shootin
must remember to aim right of target now im drawing ball and not slicing!
hit first drive OB by a couple of inches because i set up for my normal shot. doh!!!

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