Old-guy newbie needs to stop slicing

I am new to the game of golf and hope that you all can help me.
I have never played golf in my life and have recently taken several lessons to minimize the number of bad habits I will have to reverse sometime in the future.
My problem is that although I hit straight with my irons (steel shaft) and my fairway wood (titanium shaft), my driver slices something aweful. I hit further with my irons and farway wood than my driver.
I have a pretty hard swing and can actually see the shaft bend at the bottom of my swing as I keep my eyes on the ball.
I am using a Big Bertha II with a firm graphite shaft. Should I have it reshafted to something with a lower torque?
Thank you for the assistance.

Aloha!
Newbie4me

You can try something with a lower flex if you like. As far as torque is concerned, you want the lowest torque you can find.

Torque effects the shafts' ability to square up at impact - the lower the torque number, the better it squares up.

As for slicing, if your mechanics are sound (and they sound like they are), there are two things to check for the club.

First is the grip size - a grip that is too big promotes a fade/slice, a grip that is too small promotes a draw/hook.

The second (as mentioned) is your shaft flex. If a shaft is too stiff it's tough to load, and tough to square up at impact - causing a slice.

A shaft that is too flexible tends to snap shut, promoting a draw/hook. The problem here is that due to the flexibility, you'll often spray the ball all over the place. Maybe it's time to try some regular flex drivers, maybe even consider an A flex driver.

The key to shafts (as stated many times here) is to play the most flexible shaft you can control. (In other words, play the most flexible shaft you can, while maintaining accuracy). The extra flex helps you keep your distance up.

__________________
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter - www.pcsgep.com
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

Also, move the ball up in your stance and away from your body.

These two things are great to promote a draw!!

I recently fixed my driver draw with the opposite of these two things!

Good Luck

Thank you LowPost42 and Bonzi 532 for your responses and tips.

It is always great to get input from professionals. =)



LowPost42,

I greatly appreciate your expert advice.

I will apply your following suggestions:

- Try something with a lower flex. - I will try something with less flex than firm flex (I currently have a GBB System 60, Firm Flex), Regular flex, and ultra flex to see which one better fits my swing.

- Try something with the lowest torque I can find. - I will try several soft shafts with low torques to see if this helps. Just for yucks, I will try to see if I can find a driver with a steel shaft (minimizing torque) to see if this helps in the opposite direction.
- Check grip size - good suggestion, but I checked the grip size (girth and length) and found it to be the same as my irons and fairway driver.
- Check to see if the shaft is too stiff, which makes it tough to load, and tough to square up at impact - causing a slice. - I checked my swing, and found that my hands are too fast and are at the 4:30 position (forward of the ball) when the head hits the ball (the shaft bends a lot on my swing, not allowing me to square up at the 6:00 unless I deliberately slow my swing and let the head catch up). I get a hook when I slow things down. Yes, I "spray the ball all over the place" when I try to time the swing to allow the head to catch up and become square at impact. All my steel and titanium shaft clubs hit pretty straight. (Is 200-220 yards using a 3 iron an okay distance?)

Bonzi 532,

Thanks for the suggestion!

I have tried your following suggestion:

- Move the ball up in your stance and away from your body. - I have the ball just inside my left foot (I am right handed) and have put the ball away from my body. This does allow me to have a straighter hit, but I am still slicing when I take a strong swing. I hit straight only when I slow my swing down. I can force a draw by adjusting my swing speed, but lose about 50-60 yards. I usually hit straight about 215-230 yards using my fairway wood (5 wood Taylor made titanium shaft), but hit cars and homes at about 180 yards (yardage before the ball leaves the range) using my Big Bertha II.

I will keep you all in the loop as I try the different suggestions. It might take a while since I will have to save enough money to pay for the shaft change on my driver after finding someone to lend me the different shafts to test.



Thanks again for the suggestions!



Aloha!

Newbie4me

Yes, you've got good distance with your 3i.

Hands in front of the ball is good - you definitely want your hands in front. 4:30 might be a bit much (which indicates some serious clubhead lag). Part of the reason you're slicing is that the clubhead is still open because it's lagged so much. I must have missed that comment (about the flex and lag) earlier - you may want to try a stiffer flex, as this will help your clubhead to keep up with your hands.

If you want control and dont care if you sacrifice a few yards on your drive, go with a flex that you dont bend a lot, this makes control a lot easier although you lose a bit of distance which shouldn't be a problem if you hit your 3i 220

LowPost42:
Thanks for the reply. My fault completely on not saying anything about head lag. I'm new to golf and don't know the lingo. Heck, I don't even know what is important to mention much less the lingo at this point.
I will concentrate on trying out firmer shafts with lower torque for my driver.
What do you suggest?
I am currently using a GBB System 60, Firm Flex that came standard with the Big Bertha II. The shaft is 44" long.
Should I go longer? I'm afraid that a shaft longer than 44" will flex too much (even if it is super firm flex).
Thanks again for your expert opinion.

Aloha!
Newbie4Me

Now you say the shaft is 44".

How are you getting that measurement? From the top of the hosel or ferrule to the end of the grip?

The other thought that occured to me is that your club could be offset. This sets your hand out in front at address, and if you've got a good swing, you could be getting even further out in front. You don't happen to have any video or pictures of your swing?

Maybe I missed it somewhere, but how tall are you? Unless you are over 6'2", 44" should suit you fine. If you are shorter than 5'10", you may need to take some length off. 44" is pretty standard length for a driver and if you get longer, you will start runing into control issues.

LowPost42:
Thanks again for taking an interest in a newbie to golf.
The measurement is (I am quoting a golf pro posting attributed to you), "measure up the backside from the heel of the club @ the ground, to the grip cap (those double lines near the very end of the grip)."

As for offset, don't know what that is or how to measure for it.

Video was taken during one of my classes. The PGA pro reviewing stated that I have a solid swing. Sorry, I didn't get a copy of my swing and don't have a video recorder... I don't even have a digital camera. I'm lucky I have a computer to access the web from. =)

__________________
Aloha!

Newbie4Me

Carpe Diem! Seize the day (Horace)
Veni, vidi, vici. I came, I saw, I conquered. (Caesar)

Gord962:
Welcome to my tiny part of the world!
As always, I greatly appreciate all assistance from the varied pros on this site.
No, you didn't miss anything. I didn't know that height would make a difference with clubs.
I am 6' tall. My irons have been lengthened 1.5" and the heads adjusted for my height (after I got my swing form down, the instructor put tape on the bottom of all my irons and made me hit off of a flexi-glass board, which put marks on the tape on the bottom of my clubs).

Do you have a recommendation for a new shaft? Or am I being too rash? I have been hitting at the range with the club for at least 600 balls.
I am finding that I am very consistently slicing with only the driver. Almost feel as though there is some bad juju associated with the club. The club feels very good though! The club is light and whips through the air very lightly.
The club came with a GBB System 60, Firm Flex that came standard with the Big Bertha II. The shaft is 44" long.

Thank you for any assistance that you can give to this newbie.

__________________
Aloha!

Newbie4Me

Carpe Diem! Seize the day (Horace)
Veni, vidi, vici. I came, I saw, I conquered. (Caesar)

I like the driver length - 44" is a good 'control' driver.

Out of curiosity, how are you off the tee with your other clubs? Slices? Straight? Draw?

If it's JUST the driver giving you problems, it might be time to head to your local golf store to try and find a new one.

Part of me wonders if you put a different swing on your driver than you do all of your other clubs.

For a while, I know I did. I'd have fine trajectory with my other clubs, but the minute I had a ball teed up, I'd either get a slice or a power fade - but my swing would totally change. It was at the point where I needed a 4 knuckle strong grip to keep the ball straight. Obviously, this was only a temporary answer.

My swing has largely evolved over the winter, so it will be interesting to see how the Big Dog will react.

__________________
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter - www.pcsgep.com
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

LowPost42:
Thank you for following up with me on my issue.

No, I don't have any issues with my irons. I hit straight to reinforce my swing, but can force a draw or slice if need be. It is only my driver that is giving me grief! =)

I did have a bad habit with my driver of trying to smash the ball by over extending my back swing (causing a "flying elbow") then turning my shoulders way too fast such that the face of the club was open when it hit the ball. I was able to correct it after a few hundred swings.

I don't know what a 4 knuckle strong grip is, but have been suggested that I use a strong grip where the club shaft goes from the meaty portion of my left hand diagonally to the point where my first finger meets my palm. This grip allows hard hitters to turn the club head easier. The way you can tell if you have the grip right is if you can see the back of your left hand when you are setting up.

I practiced over the winter as well. To be honest, the reason I am trying to fix my driver situation is because I lost 20 balls during a charity golf tournament. I had never played golf before (except for going to the driving range twice) and embarrassed myself pretty good! =) The 20 balls went into the woods, ponds, and housing areas. The balls went over the first rows of homes facing the golf course. I was just happy that I didn't read in the papers the next day about an accident caused by an errant golf ball! =)

So right now, I am just practicing at the range where I can minimize my capacity to do damage. I still feel sorry for the cars in the parking lot when I hit with my driver... One heck of a curve on my slice. Sure wish I could throw the baseball like that when I was in High School. I woulda made the Majors!

Hope you do well this coming season! Cheers!

__________________
Aloha!

Newbie4Me

Carpe Diem! Seize the day (Horace)
Veni, vidi, vici. I came, I saw, I conquered. (Caesar)

We're talking about the same grip here. If you look down at your hands at address, and can see 4 knuckles (or the back of your hand) on your left hand, it's a 4 knuckle grip - also known as VERY strong (this has nothing to do with grip pressure).

The only problem is, like I said, it's a bandaid solution. Yes, if you're casting, (often caused by the flying elbow) it seems to get the clubhead closed enough to promote either a straight shot or a pull-slice (or pull-fade, aka Power Fade). The problem is that if you use it and DON'T come from the outside - an immediate duck-hook is the result... low and left in a hurry. Not to mention that your club looks broken after the swing (as the head is all twisted around due to the ultra-strong grip).

Another couple of questions re: ball flight. Does your shot start straight then banana out right? Or does it go straight right then curve some more?

My assumption, from everything you've said, is that you're coming down the line nicely with an open clubface - very open.

You might try closing the clubface at address. The other thing you might want to check is your ball position. As Bonzi has stated, let's get it forward (if it ins't already). Try playing the ball level with your lead heel.

Since you're at the range, drop a couple clubs on the ground. Have the first one point out to the range (this is your target line). Put your toes up to this club. Have the other club touching your lead heel, making a 'T' with your target line club. Tee up the ball in line with the intersection. Swing away.

__________________
PCS Class 'A' Clubfitter - www.pcsgep.com
True Length Technology Fitter - www.truelengthtechnology.com
It's live! - www.ShipShapeClubs.com

A new highlight: Golfing the home course on Christmas Day.

I say it too often: If it's golf club shaped, you can play with it.

For the record, I'm a club doctor, not a swing doctor.

Is the shaft flex on your driver different than the flex of the rest of your clubs? Even if it is, there is no standard for what a 'stiff' or 'regular' flex is. One of my co-workers has a TM R580 with a stiff shaft. He took it in and the shaft tested as a XX stiff. He now has a frequency checked shaft and everything now works fine for him! From your posts above it sounds more and more like you are hitting too stiff of a shaft. Take it in to have it checked where they adjusted your irons - this could fix all your problems quickly.

__________________
Gord

Quote of the month:
"It's easy to see golf not as a game at all but as some whey-faced, nineteenth-century Presbyterian minister's fever dream of exorcism achieved through ritual and self-mortification." ~Bruce McCall