How-To "Backspin on chips"

Bill, I totally get what you mean, but that photo is not the point of impact, and the entire proposition is wrong if you use that photo as a base.

The clubhead should attack the ball on a downward trajectory, aiming to hit the ground AFTER point of impact, about an inch IN FRONT of where the ball was positioned.

That puts first ball contact in a VERY different position from what you are showing in your photo, and it WILL 'trap' the ball, in keeping the force vector moving downward through the contact with the ball. And it is this force vector and the bounce of the club that keeps the ball in contact with the clubhead for as long as possible. Long contact from an accelerating clubhead means SPIN!

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme

hi Mox
i do agree what the way you have said that, but of you look at my picture and i agree it not really meant to be impact point, you will see the forward lean of the shaft and if you take the club head coming down in a very sharp swing you still contact below the middle of the ball and the ball compresses on the face of the club and runs up the groves imparting more backspin but it down to the sharper swing but you still don't hit down you swing down and the club makes contact with the lower half of the ball and the ball runs up the club face. i wish i had a slow clip i could show of what happens to the ball and you would see it does compress into the club face but not the ground, also if the ground was soft then it would be harder to get backspin as it would be harder to compress the ball with the ground but that not the case, its just as easy to impart more backspin on a lush fairway as it it on hard compact fairway.
the confusion i think is that you have to hit a ball below the equator with every club in the bag even the putter but the putter is the closest club to hitting the equator. but with the shorter clubs your swing is more upright and we swing back into ball steeper, this is often called hitting down on the ball but you don't really hit down on the ball you swing down under the ball into the ground after you make contact with the ball.
you contact the ball before the club hits the ground and the ball spins up the club face.
there is no way you can push the ball down against the earth with the loft of the clubs we all use as you can never get the face of the club on to or above the equator to push the ball down word to compress with the earth.
cheers
bill

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Bill is absolutely correct, it is not possible to trap the ball between the clubface and the ground, this is one of the biggest myths in golf and unfortunately still put out by some of those at the top of the game.

If anyone thinks it can be done then try what Bill has suggested and you will see that it cannot happen. If you hit a ball off a tee it absolutely cannot be trapped with the ground but it still spins and goes upwards, so exactly what part would the ground play in ball flight?

The ball sits on the clubface for around a millisecond and it is the oblique blow imparted by the clubs loft that makes it slide then roll up the face creating spin, nothing else.

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

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Funny o'l game!

Support the shaft...pivot thru the shot...feels like a trap.

For any anoraks like me this is a nice article that explains what happens at impact and expels some of the myths of it.

http://www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swing2.php?ref=

thanks Brian
thats what i was trying to explain but your link does it a lot better than i did.
really good link.
cheers
bill

To bad there wasn't better one of an iron off the turf.

ya, the whole reason you need to hit steeper the more loft club you got is to hit the ball with the ceter of the club face. (see video below 7i Ii think) a 2i is so upright that you can almost hit it with no descent at all and still hit the ceter of the club face.

hi golfinguy
if you look at the top pro golfers you can often see a worn ring where the ball wears the club face on mostly there wedges and it always on grove 4,5 and 6 from the bottom and that would agree with your last post where you say the pros hit the ball of the center of the club face.
with the short irons there is more weight on the sole of the club and the sweet spot it just below the center of the club face and not the center of the face, the driver it the other way, the sweet spot it higher on the club face.
cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag

ok, cool thanks for clarificatoin, (slightly below center for short irons) but still a descending blow is needed to hit that, main point being that its not to hit down and pinch the ground and the ball, its to make it possible to hit the center of the face (or slightly south) and not thin the ball from a flipping or a sweeping blow.

I never did understand where the "pinching theory" came from and how a upward slop (loft) could have a downward force and "pinch" the ball and the ground. what really blow my mind is that golf digest and other "big names" still teach this as ben hogans post shows. with the technology we have and high speed cameras and force mats ect you would think they would be able to figure this one out? and how would that theory explain how the ball "compresses or pinches" when they hit out of the sand, does why does the ball no go into the sand further upon compression?

just food for thought for all the "pinch theory" believers out there, not saying I am right, just saying why I believe what I believe

You only need to consider a ball hit of a tee, it flies as well as one on the ground if not better but it cannot make contact with the ground. I am also amazed at how the pinch theory is still propagated by many professionals.

hi
if any of you play links golf as I do most of the time you will know that the fairways are cut short and feel spongy under foot even in the summer, it feels so diffrent to inland courses, when using from a 7 iron to my wedges i take a divot, with the longer clubs i tend to shave the top's of the grass. if i have say 140 to go to the green i use a full 7 iron and i always get some backspin, sometime lots and sometimes it stops dead and no spin back but there is never any mark on the fairway where the ball has been compressed between the club face and the ground and the links fairway is soft and you would see it. i get the same backspin on the inland courses but the fairways have longer bladed grass and any divot it heaver than you take on a links course, the grass on links courses is very fine and don't seem have a grain like inland courses do.
if you did compress the ball with the ground then you would get diffrent results playing links and inland courses but i know i don't. it the same it you play off the first cut when the ball is sitting up in the grass not touching the ground.
cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag

ah yes thank you

It's odd though, that the worlds greatest golfer - Tiger Woods himself - talks about "trapping the ball between club and turf".

Tiger Tips: Compress the ball

Now who to believe ... The Tiger, or ...

This is a matter of (very) simple physics.

A downward strike on the ball, be it on turf or tee, produces a force vector that points downwards. Not directly downwards, and not more downwards than forward, but definatly more downwards than horisontal. That goes for lofted clubs as well. The force of the club is down as well as forward.

That force compresses the ball against the turf or the tee. It has nowhere else to go, and can only transfer it's energy to the ball in the direction of the force vectors.

It is the restriction of the ground or the tee that causes the ball to ride up the clubface, allowing the prolonged contact to induce spin.

Try to put a ball on a tee and hit it with an upward strike. Can you make it spin back on the green? Not very likely. Hit the same ball with a downward strike and it will spin a lot more. The downward strike cause the club to have less loft and the launch angle to be lower. Despite this, the ball checks on the green, where the higher launching shot, hit by the sweeping higher lofted club drops softer but spins less.


Regarding sand play, Bill, a correct bunker shot is never a downward strike on the ball, but a downward strike on the sand BEFORE the ball. A perfect bunker shot has no contact between club head and ball, but only the club accelerating the mass of sand under the ball. Dave Pelz writes very detailed on this in his Short Game Bible.
Any backspin on bunker shots, comes from contact between sand in motion and ball at rest, not from contact between ball and club.

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme