How-To "Backspin on chips"

[quote=Mox;10552040][quote=Neil18;10551983]
It is physically impossible to hit the ball any higher than the equator if we are to get it air born. Even though the clubhead mass is moving in a slightly descending direction, the loft on the face (and ball position depending on 2 iron or wedge) is at an angle greater than the angle of descent. Always. Hence the ball cannot move down. Even for 0.0000000000001 seconds.
Mox,

Of course you can do that with a Billiard cue but that is a completely different device and action than using a golf club, it is not comparing apples with apples. Try that shot if the end of the cue was 6 CM wide, sloping back at 45 degrees, striking the ball at a force of one ton with grass under it

Oh! and it is not possible to hit the ball out of the sweet spot higher than the equator, you can only do that with the leading edge and the ball will squirt out flat.

You still think it is about the angle of the clubface. It is not. It is about the DIRECTION of the clubface at impact. That is what applies force to the ball.

What my example proves, is that a downward force applied to a ball DOES trap the ball against surface and club face (or cue tip). It DOES compress the ball against the surface. Forces DO react back from the ball to the club face (or cue tip), causing prolongued contact at higher compression, resulting in MORE spin.
Whether the contact surface is a lofted wedge or a rounded cue tip makes NO DIFFERENCE to the principles of physics involved.

And I'm sure you'll find, that billards players are even able to hit the ball below the equator, on a DOWNWARD trajectory, to create massive backspin.

It's the same principle that applies. You hit DOWN on the ball, compress it between cue tip/club face and surface/ground. The resulting opposite forces prolongues and enhances the contact with the cue tip/club face, creating the enhanced spin.

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme

What? You think the principles of physics changes?

The same principles apply! It is not about clubface loft. It is about DIRECTION OF FORCE!

Mox,

Take a look at these video sequences. Please do not say the ball is pinched between the clubface and rubber tee to compress it

You should be able to see that the ball is only in compression on the clubface with the driver and iron.

I don't know what your purpose is with showing this video again.

As already established, the driver DOES compress the ball (slightly) against the tee. On top of that, Driver shots are meant to be UPWARD strikes to REDUCE spinning. The purpose of THIS topic is to MAXIMIZE spinning, so talking about swing trajectories that does the opposite is irrelevant.

No it is not the same principle, the force vectors are completely different with the clubface and the billiard cue.

Alastair Cochran & John Stobbs published a book : Search for the Perfect Swing, the book gives a scientists perspective on the golf swing and the physics / ballistics of the golf ball, the project was supported and funded by the Golf Society of Great Britain. Chapter 23 of the book "The ballistics of Golf: How Spin and Flight Begin" Shows in great detail with many illustrations and scientific data how a golf ball is struck with lofted clubs and exactly how the ball reacts to the forces and vectors. These studies show conclusively that the ball is compressed and slides up the clubface from the very instant of impact. If you have the opportunity to read it then please do as it will clarify the physics for you.

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

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Funny o'l game!

Even the Iron shot in that clip is a low spin, long iron, distance shot, not a spin shot.

Mox,

Do you honestly believe that a rubber tee can sustain and compress a golf ball against the the force of a driver at 3,000 psi thus creating additional spin?

What's that got to do with it, the ball reacts exactly the same way with every club, it's just that more loft will create more spin due to the more oblique blow.

Stop the picture of the iron just before impact then tell me how that clubface can hit down on that ball?

Wrong, wrong, wrong ... the loft has NO impact on spinrate. Only the direction of the force influences spin. Loft has impact on LAUNCH ANGLE!

The forces applied by a lofted club that moves in a forward and downward direction, are forces directed forward and downward. NO MATTER THE LOFT!

Of course it can. Not as much as a downward strike on a hardpan lie, but yes, there are forces coming back from the tee impacting the ball travel on the driver face and causing the ball to spin.

Hence the use for Frictionless Tees.

Mox! You said "the loft has NO impact on spin rate. Only the direction of the force influences spin. Loft has impact on LAUNCH ANGLE!"

Spin is created by the oblique blow of the clubface into the ball, the ball compresses onto the face, slides then rolls back up the clubface, the more oblique the blow (More loft) the more the sliding and rolling up the face creating more spin. The more oblique the blow the more the force is transferred into sliding and subsequent spin. That's why a lower lofted club creates less spin and more distance due to more force being imparted into the balls core, delofting the clubface will generate more distance with the same club. If your theory was correct then the ball would be imparted with the same spin rate from a driver and a lob wedge, only the launch angle would change.

OH! and Mox, lets keep this an academic debate and not transcend into using capital letters to shout out a reply please.

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

________________________________
Funny o'l game!

hi Mox
thats why i said you scope the ball out the bunker, unless in a fairway bunker and you try and clip the ball before the sand. cant do that in our links fairway bunkers as there are all about 3 feet deep and the scope sand shot is the only way.

Mox you said, "the force applied by a lofted club that moves in a forward and downward direction, are forces directed forward and downwards, no matter the loft."

if loft don't matter then why does the ball leave the face of the club at an angle related to the clubs loft. and why does the more lofted club apply more spin rate to a ball if loft don't matter. if the ball did not run up the face why make the face bigger on the more lofted clubs. why not have all the club faces the same if you always hit the ball and it compresses with the ground the you don't need a bigger club face.
i don't think we will agree on this as i have to be shown something to really believe it and you have not shown me how you hit down on a golf ball with a lofted golf club, o do believe you could do it with a pool cue as it has a flat face and you can hit above the middle of the ball but you cant with a golf club, do you also think a pool ball compresses with a pull table?.

cheers
bill

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Wow, you guys have gone nuts!

Since I started the thread, I guess I can give my 2 cents:

I say you obviously can "pinch" the ball to create spin, and give the following evidence:

Try getting spin with no grooves (won't happen). The grooves obviously grip the ball. (No arguments so far, I guess....)

Try getting spin with grooves, but from the rough. The groove grip the ball the same, but because they can't pinch the ball against the ground, (as from the fairway), less or no spin occurs.

Thanks for the tips though, they are great !!!

hi Yggdrasil
the groves don't really add to the spin rate and are there to try and keep the grass of the face where it meets the ball. the reason you don't get as much back spine in the rough is that grass gets between the face and the ball and reduces the amount the ball runs up the face.
if you were to use a club with no groves from the fairway you would still get backspin, makers are always saying about there groves making more backspin on there new wedges but it more about the groves moving the rubbish between the ball and the face a bit like the groves on a car tier and the way it removes the water from the road and lets the main part of the tier say on the road, the golf club works in the same way. the deeper and wider the grove the more water or grass it removes from the face, thats why the R&A have limited the amount of depth and the distance of the groves and the distance from on grove to the other.
you may not remember the old dimples clubs the had punch marks like dimples on a ball and no groves and they were baned as they gave to much backspin. and they had no groves at all, i still have a old set of Johny Letters like that. 62 years old now the clubs not me lol.
think of the new drivers, most don't have any groves around the hitting area and the ball spins at a rate of 2000 to 3000 rpm.

cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag