How-To "Backspin on chips"

Mox · #61 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill reed

A driver, on the other hand, spins the ball a lot less, due to a different trajectory from the club head at impact!

hi Mox
i was replying to your post and why there is a difference using a driver of the fairway to using it on a tee peg.
bill

Lots of top players play their drivers from the fairway. Vijay is one example. Tigar another. It is a shorter, higher shot than from the tee. Reason: more downward strike = more spin = balloning ballflight.

bill reed · #62 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 02:54 PM

Can we please agree, based on these facts, coming from tests with real balls, that loft has NO IMPACT on spin rate? Now try to run through your theories again![/quote]

hi Mox
i would love to see you get the same backspin on my 1 iron that i get on my 56% wedge. if loft has no impact then i should be able to stop the ball dead when i hit a 4 iron on the green as i do with my 8 iron as both balls spin the same according to you.
sorry Mox but thats not how it works with my clubs and my long irons have more side spin than my short irons. you try fading with a wedge and then with a 1 iron and say loft don't have an impact on spin.

lowpost has been talking about clubs that have the same shaft length so you have the same swing with every club. why then do you still get more spin with the wedges than the long irons.
cheers
bill

BrianW · #63 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mox

First of all, I use capital letter to emphasize essential differences in and definitions. I could use bold, italics, underlining or color, but I use capitals!

Secondly, your theory above is completely false. Consider this: A driver hit with an upward trajectory results in a long, piercing, low spinning shot.
A driver hit - with the completely same loft - with a downward trajectory, results in a far short, ballooning shot.

Why? Because the downward strike pinches the ball and creates MORE spin, despite having the exact same loft on the club.

Again - loft has impact on launch angle, not on spin.

You can strike a 7 iron with as much spin as a wedge. You will be less likely to get it to spin back on the green due to two reason.

1) the interaction between ball and air during forward flight (drag), and
2) The lower trajectory creating a shallower landing angle, forcing the backspin to not only fight the friction of the green, but also the forward moment of the ball.
A wedge shot drops from the sky at a very steep angle, due to the higher launch angle, and thus does not have to fight forward momentum of the ball.

These data shows clearly, that a 6-iron spins the ball almost exactly as hard as a wedge and sometimes even harder, only with very different launch angles. Thus PROVING my theory, exactly to the point you expressed!

A driver, on the other hand, spins the ball a lot less, due to a different trajectory from the club head at impact!

Can we please agree, based on these facts, coming from tests with real balls, that loft has NO IMPACT on spin rate? Now try to run through your theories again!

To use your terminology "your theory above is completely false" An upward blow with a driver does increase launch angle due to the steeper angle of impact but not spin rates as the loft remains the same, there will be no pinching going on though. A ball hit by a driver with a steep descending blow causes the ball to balloon due to it being struck high on the clubface, this deforms the ball around the top of the clubface thus creating excessive spin due to the high Coefficient of Restitution. The extreme case is where you get a zip mark over the top of the driver and the ball shoots up almost vertical.

Here are some scientific results published in "The search for the Perfect Golf Swing":

Data for a golf ball struck at 100 mph using different clubs:

Driver with 0 deg loft:
Trajectory = 0 deg
Ball speed = 135 mph
Spin = 0 rps

Driver with 10 deg loft:
Trajectory = 8 deg
Ball speed = 134 mph
Spin = 60 rps

5 iron with 30 deg loft:
Trajectory = 23 deg
Ball speed = 105 mph
Spin = 120 rps

9 iron with 45 deg loft:
Trajectory = 29 deg
Ball speed = 90 mph
Spin = 180 rps

Further you may like to read the following article that will explain some of the more detailed physics appertaining to golf ball ballistics.

http://www.golf-simulators.com/physics.htm

Mox · #64 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill reed

Can we please agree, based on these facts, coming from tests with real balls, that loft has NO IMPACT on spin rate? Now try to run through your theories again!

hi Mox
i would love to see you get the same backspin on my 1 iron that i get on my 56% wedge. if loft has no impact then i should be able to stop the ball dead when i hit a 4 iron on the green as i do with my 8 iron as both balls spin the same according to you.
sorry Mox but thats not how it works with my clubs and my long irons have more side spin than my short irons. you try fading with a wedge and then with a 1 iron and say loft don't have an impact on spin.

lowpost has been talking about clubs that have the same shaft length so you have the same swing with every club. why then do you still get more spin with the wedges than the long irons.
cheers
bill

Are you even reading my posts Bill?

A 4-iron and a wedge can have the same initial spinrate. Drag influences the 4-iron shot more, and the landing trajectory is completely different, which is why the 4-iron shot doesn't stop dead.

bill reed · #65 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 03:25 PM

Hi Mox
yes i am reading your post and what your saying is all clubs give the ball the same spin rate and it drag and launch angle that make the difference between clubs and not loft.
with a driver if it had 10 groves then you hit the ball on the top 4 groves as in Brian's clips he has put on here, if you hit on the lower 6 groves you change the spin rate of the ball and the flight of the ball. iff loft has nothing to do with it then why can you hit high with a tee and lower of the fairway using the same driver and swing.
cheers
bill

Mox · #66 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianW

A ball hit by a driver with a steep descending blow causes the ball to balloon due to it being struck high on the clubface, this deforms the ball around the top of the clubface thus creating excessive spin due to the high Coefficient of Restitution. The extreme case is where you get a zip mark over the top of the driver and the ball shoots up almost vertical.

You can not believe this yourself?!

You are now saying, that you only get ballooning drives because you strike the ball too high on the clubface?

I challenge you to tee the ball so low, that you can't possibly hit it too high on the face, and then try to hit down on it instead.

And how does the top of the clubface get to have a higher CoR than the sweet spot???

It's not making a bit of sense!

This discussion is at a point where I honestly have a hard time taking it seriously. I have provided statements from top players and coaches, descriptions of the physics involved, statistics from public tests etc.

You believe what you want to believe.

It all reminds me of this, which will be my exit-cue...

BrianW · #67 (**permalink**) 03-28-2008, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mox

You can not believe this yourself?!

You are now saying, that you only get ballooning drives because you strike the ball too high on the clubface?

I challenge you to tee the ball so low, that you can't possibly hit it too high on the face, and then try to hit down on it instead.

And how does the top of the clubface get to have a higher CoR than the sweet spot???

It's not making a bit of sense!

This discussion is at a point where I honestly have a hard time taking it seriously. I have provided statements from top players and coaches, descriptions of the physics involved, statistics from public tests etc.

You believe what you want to believe.

It all reminds me of this, which will be my exit-cue...

Mox, I am so disappointed with your last post, I have regarded you of a higher stature than this. If you wish to retire from the debate then feel free and I would not think any less of you. The attached picture and comments do you no justice though, they are not worthy of an intellectual debate.

I wish you well.

Mox · #68 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 12:10 AM

It's a comic - a joke - meant as a joke - and funny too.

Especially if you consider that I 'said goodbye' to this topic a few days back already, yet apparently continued the debate anyway.

I was able to recognize myself in the above cartoon, and still found it funny. I had hoped you would too. Guess not.

BrianW · #69 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mox

It's a comic - a joke - meant as a joke - and funny too.

Especially if you consider that I 'said goodbye' to this topic a few days back already, yet apparently continued the debate anyway.

I was able to recognize myself in the above cartoon, and still found it funny. I had hoped you would too. Guess not.

Mox, can you not see that it can be construed as a comment to your debatees?

If it was not meant to be an offence then I apologise for the misinterpretation.

Mox · #70 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 10:03 AM

Sure, I can see it as being part of the debate, and it is.

This last day, this has been exactly what we have been doing. Continuing a debate, that we had long since shown to be pointless. We don't agree!

Who is wrong and right matters little at this point. But we're both (or all) still sitting here because we're convinced that the other party is wrong.

I promise you - and all others - that no offense was meant. I love this place, and would never deliberately offend anybody.

I have enjoyed this discussion. I love heated debates, and I don't fear people having different opinions from me. I think that is very healthy in any community.

So, I'm truly sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention.

BrianW · #71 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mox

Sure, I can see it as being part of the debate, and it is.

This last day, this has been exactly what we have been doing. Continuing a debate, that we had long since shown to be pointless. We don't agree!

Who is wrong and right matters little at this point. But we're both (or all) still sitting here because we're convinced that the other party is wrong.

I promise you - and all others - that no offense was meant. I love this place, and would never deliberately offend anybody.

I have enjoyed this discussion. I love heated debates, and I don't fear people having different opinions from me. I think that is very healthy in any community.

So, I'm truly sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention.

Thanks Mox,

It has been an interesting debate and we seem to be at an impasse with it. I am happy to concede that we have differing opinions and will probably not agree on the subject.

I respect you for your opinions and wish you well my friend.

Best wishes

Brian

bill reed · #72 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 10:24 PM

hi
its good we can all give our views and then try and support them in discussion even if we never agree on what is right but in a few posts we could be agreeing on a diffrent post.
it good to get diffrent points of views and it does make you think and that can only be a good thing.
cheers
bill

BrianW · #73 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill reed

hi
its good we can all give our views and then try and support them in discussion even if we never agree on what is right but in a few posts we could be agreeing on a diffrent post.
it good to get diffrent points of views and it does make you think and that can only be a good thing.
cheers
bill

Bill,

You are a real diamond geezer in my estimation. We have never met but I hope that one day we may have the opportunity

bill reed · #74 (**permalink**) 03-29-2008, 10:46 PM

thanks Brian
i have learned a lot in the 15 or so months i have been a member here and i have picked up a great deal from you and this site has made me think and revalue some of the things i believed and i have changed my views on some things. i hope one day we will meet and maybe have a game.
keep up your the good posts.
cheers
bill

Bully306 · #75 (**permalink**) 07-03-2008, 12:27 PM

eeeeh just having a bit of a mooch about and stumbled upon this thread!!

Now i'm not wishing to reignite things but for what it's worth i'm with Mox.

He's not saying the ball is hit squarely into the ground, like you would say, with a mallet and fence post.

In the pictures Brian posted you see (as we look at them) the ball being struck and the ball rotating anti clockwise.

How is this rotation possible without the initial movement of the ball being downwards??

It's not a squirt as in tiddly winks, as there is no pressure coming from directly above. But the initial movement of the back of the ball is down, which starts the rotation.

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