How-To "Backspin on chips"

First of all, I use capital letter to emphasize essential differences in and definitions. I could use bold, italics, underlining or color, but I use capitals!

Secondly, your theory above is completely false. Consider this: A driver hit with an upward trajectory results in a long, piercing, low spinning shot.
A driver hit - with the completely same loft - with a downward trajectory, results in a far short, ballooning shot.

Why? Because the downward strike pinches the ball and creates MORE spin, despite having the exact same loft on the club.

Again - loft has impact on launch angle, not on spin.

You can strike a 7 iron with as much spin as a wedge. You will be less likely to get it to spin back on the green due to two reason.

1) the interaction between ball and air during forward flight (drag), and
2) The lower trajectory creating a shallower landing angle, forcing the backspin to not only fight the friction of the green, but also the forward moment of the ball.
A wedge shot drops from the sky at a very steep angle, due to the higher launch angle, and thus does not have to fight forward momentum of the ball.


These data shows clearly, that a 6-iron spins the ball almost exactly as hard as a wedge and sometimes even harder, only with very different launch angles. Thus PROVING my theory, exactly to the point you expressed!

A driver, on the other hand, spins the ball a lot less, due to a different trajectory from the club head at impact!


Can we please agree, based on these facts, coming from tests with real balls, that loft has NO IMPACT on spin rate? Now try to run through your theories again!

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme

hi Mox
a driver of the fairway is hard to hit as the sweet spot is higher than the center of the the face making it almost imposable to hit a good driver off the fairway with the newer drivers, i have an older Ping zing driver i hit of the fairway often but it is the smaller head 350 and the sweet spot in in the center of the face making a shot of the fairway just a normal shot. its not a normal shot with the newer 460cc brivers as the ball sits to low and you cant hit it of the center of the face and have even less chance hitting the sweet spot. i hit my driver about 240 of the fairway and about 250/260 off the tee.
cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag

What has that got do with this debate ???

Bill is correct.

Grooves on a clubface do not create spin and there is sound scientific evidence to support this. All grooves do is wick away moisture just like the treads on a car tyre. A slick car tyre grips better in the dry just like a golf club.

A driver, on the other hand, spins the ball a lot less, due to a different trajectory from the club head at impact!


hi Mox
i was replying to your post and why there is a difference using a driver of the fairway to using it on a tee peg.

if you try and hit a new driver off the fairway you will find it very hard to get it up in the air. if you use a wedge you find it fly's high without you trying to make it do that. the reason is the loft. with the new driver the ball cant clime the face as the sweet spot is so high on the face and thats why its so hard to get in the air when hitting of the fairway and why you hit it high on a tee peg. anyone trying to hit a driver of the fairway will find this out using a big headed driver.
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag

Lots of top players play their drivers from the fairway. Vijay is one example. Tigar another. It is a shorter, higher shot than from the tee. Reason: more downward strike = more spin = balloning ballflight.

Can we please agree, based on these facts, coming from tests with real balls, that loft has NO IMPACT on spin rate? Now try to run through your theories again![/quote]


hi Mox
i would love to see you get the same backspin on my 1 iron that i get on my 56% wedge. if loft has no impact then i should be able to stop the ball dead when i hit a 4 iron on the green as i do with my 8 iron as both balls spin the same according to you.
sorry Mox but thats not how it works with my clubs and my long irons have more side spin than my short irons. you try fading with a wedge and then with a 1 iron and say loft don't have an impact on spin.

lowpost has been talking about clubs that have the same shaft length so you have the same swing with every club. why then do you still get more spin with the wedges than the long irons.
cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag

To use your terminology "your theory above is completely false" An upward blow with a driver does increase launch angle due to the steeper angle of impact but not spin rates as the loft remains the same, there will be no pinching going on though. A ball hit by a driver with a steep descending blow causes the ball to balloon due to it being struck high on the clubface, this deforms the ball around the top of the clubface thus creating excessive spin due to the high Coefficient of Restitution. The extreme case is where you get a zip mark over the top of the driver and the ball shoots up almost vertical.

Here are some scientific results published in "The search for the Perfect Golf Swing":

Data for a golf ball struck at 100 mph using different clubs:

Driver with 0 deg loft:
Trajectory = 0 deg
Ball speed = 135 mph
Spin = 0 rps

Driver with 10 deg loft:
Trajectory = 8 deg
Ball speed = 134 mph
Spin = 60 rps

5 iron with 30 deg loft:
Trajectory = 23 deg
Ball speed = 105 mph
Spin = 120 rps

9 iron with 45 deg loft:
Trajectory = 29 deg
Ball speed = 90 mph
Spin = 180 rps

Further you may like to read the following article that will explain some of the more detailed physics appertaining to golf ball ballistics.

http://www.golf-simulators.com/physics.htm

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

________________________________
Funny o'l game!

Are you even reading my posts Bill?

A 4-iron and a wedge can have the same initial spinrate. Drag influences the 4-iron shot more, and the landing trajectory is completely different, which is why the 4-iron shot doesn't stop dead.

Hi Mox
yes i am reading your post and what your saying is all clubs give the ball the same spin rate and it drag and launch angle that make the difference between clubs and not loft.
with a driver if it had 10 groves then you hit the ball on the top 4 groves as in Brian's clips he has put on here, if you hit on the lower 6 groves you change the spin rate of the ball and the flight of the ball. iff loft has nothing to do with it then why can you hit high with a tee and lower of the fairway using the same driver and swing.
cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag

You can not believe this yourself?!

You are now saying, that you only get ballooning drives because you strike the ball too high on the clubface?

I challenge you to tee the ball so low, that you can't possibly hit it too high on the face, and then try to hit down on it instead.

And how does the top of the clubface get to have a higher CoR than the sweet spot???

It's not making a bit of sense!

This discussion is at a point where I honestly have a hard time taking it seriously. I have provided statements from top players and coaches, descriptions of the physics involved, statistics from public tests etc.

You believe what you want to believe.

It all reminds me of this, which will be my exit-cue...

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme

Mox, I am so disappointed with your last post, I have regarded you of a higher stature than this. If you wish to retire from the debate then feel free and I would not think any less of you. The attached picture and comments do you no justice though, they are not worthy of an intellectual debate.

I wish you well.

It's a comic - a joke - meant as a joke - and funny too.

Especially if you consider that I 'said goodbye' to this topic a few days back already, yet apparently continued the debate anyway.

I was able to recognize myself in the above cartoon, and still found it funny. I had hoped you would too. Guess not.

Mox, can you not see that it can be construed as a comment to your debatees?

If it was not meant to be an offence then I apologise for the misinterpretation.

Sure, I can see it as being part of the debate, and it is.

This last day, this has been exactly what we have been doing. Continuing a debate, that we had long since shown to be pointless. We don't agree!

Who is wrong and right matters little at this point. But we're both (or all) still sitting here because we're convinced that the other party is wrong.

I promise you - and all others - that no offense was meant. I love this place, and would never deliberately offend anybody.

I have enjoyed this discussion. I love heated debates, and I don't fear people having different opinions from me. I think that is very healthy in any community.

So, I'm truly sorry if I offended you. It was not my intention.

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme