How-To "Backspin on chips"

hi Greeboman
your right about the angle of the shaft, if you have say a 9 iron with the sole flat the the shaft does lie forward and more so with a wedge and the shaft works it back to almost straight up in a one iron.
but the loft of the face still looks like the pictures Brian sent in.
her is my 56 wedge and you can see how far the shaft leaned forward to get the sole flat.
cheers
bill

Attached Images

56-wedge.JPG (737.9 KB, 6 views)

Hi,
I find that I can achieve decent backspin especially with my 56 degree vokey spin milled wedge.I play the ball back in my stance and then open my stance. I then attack the ball on a slightly steeper angle imagining that I want the leading edge to slip under the ball nipping it in order for the ball to roll up the grooves. I never release the club, it is important to keep the face open through to the finish with the face pointing up at the sky.The difficulty is in obtaining a clean strike.I can make the ball stop dead and sometimes it spins back a couple of feet depending on the conditions however I only want it to check and stop.I have never been able to get the ball to Zip back 6 to 12 feet like the pros. It would be nice to be able to do that just for show in practice. Unfortunately I am not talented enough to do that.
Best wishes Bogeygolfer.

Sorry above reply was for the other thread on backspin when pitching.
For chipping I use mainly 5 /7 and 9 iron. I play the ball slightly back in my stance and point the shaft for a right handed golfer towards my left hip with my weight on the left side.I then chop down on the ball with a low follow through and the clubhead just passes my left foot. This imparts just enough spin to allow for a slight check and the ball then runs out.Carry one third ,rolls out two thirds.
A good tip which I learn't from a fellow golfer was to practice three swings. 7,8 and 9 o'clock backswing with each iron and chart the carry distance.This has helped my shortgame improve.

Bogeygolfer.

You simply do not get it.

Angle of clubhead is irellevant. point of impact on the ball is irellevant. only thing relevant is the vector of the force applied from clubhead to ball, and since the clubhead moves down and forward, the vector WILL point down and forward.

That will trap the ball between clubhead and ground.

I'm not going into this discussion again, and you will never accept any evidence based on maths or physics anyway, so never mind that headcover talk!

hi Max
what i don't get is how you get that down force you talk about if you always make contact below the equator of the ball.
what you say is right if the club face was square and no loft then the contact would be on the center of the ball and the force as you said would be down.
but you never make contact at the middle of the ball it aways below and with a club face that it angled back and that hits the ball upwards.
if you look at some of the charts with loft and distance and hight of the flight the club hits the ball and you were to put a nail through the club face then that would show you the angle the ball leave the club face.
its a tip some pros use when hitting over a tree the imagine a nail through the club to give then the impression of the angle of the the angle the ball leaves the face and if it will got high enough to clear the tree.
what were doing in golf it hitting below the middle of the golf ball with a wedged shaped club and you cant put downward force on the ball if you hit below the equator.
cheers
bill

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Interesting thread,in my opinion when you apply backspin to the ball you are contacting the ball below the equator. It is impossible to strike down on the ball in a fashion which impacts the ball above the equator, to do that then the angle of the shaft would have to be below your feet. Sqeezing the ball out of the turf is a good mental thought but in reality the club never does that.I have discussed this thread with a tour player and to apply spin requires the ball to ride up the club face. To get this right and zip the ball back you need god given talent because the margin of error is so precise.The three images provided by the previous poster is correct.Anyway what does it matter.
I learn more everytime I check into this site.You guys sure do provide some good advice and for me that is all this site is about. Improving your golf.

Best wishes to you all.

Bogeygolfer.

If the clubhead moves DOWN and FORWARD at the point of impact, it has NO relevance WHERE on the ball you strike it, nor the angle of the clubface, the force of impact WILL BE DOWN AND FORWARD.

It's physics 101!

Has anybody tried to kick a curling ball in soccer?

Say you kick with your right foot and what the ball to curl from right to left, where do you kick it? On the RIGHT side, with a force moving RIGHT and FORWARD. Is the resulting shot pulling to the left? No! It pushes to the right, then curls back to the left!

Look at this picture


That ball is kicked at a point that is on the right side of the ball and gets a right side spin - pushes out to the right and curls back to the left.


Again, the ball is struck RIGHT of center, with forces moving RIGHT and FORWARD, and pushes RIGHT before curling back left.

Similarly, a golf ball struck BELOW center, with forces moving DOWN and FORWARD, will be pushed DOWN, thus COMPRESSING against the immovable ground, and forward.

So claiming that you can't hit down because the striking points is below the equator of the ball Is completely FALSE!

Whether you believe that this is eventually the cause of the spin or not, I don't care, but stop saying that you can't hit down when striking the ball below the equator.

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme

From this page:

Ball is pushed down, can't move the planet, compresses against the ground, slides up the clubface, where friction causes the spin and decompression the speed.

hi Max
your quote seems to agree with my thinking in that the ball spins up the club face and your quote said "the ball, rather than been driven into the ground as a downward hit might imply - will spin up the club face."
i take it from your quote that it to mean that the ball is not pushed down but spins up.
I'm sorry but i just don't agree with your idea that you can still hit down on the ball if your striking below the equator of the ball.
i have tried this at home on the table and you cant get any downward pressure on the ball even using a one iron with very little loft.
going by what you say the ball will have to travel down and forward a little before changing direction and then start spinning backwards up the club face. sorry but i just don't see that, in the slow film clip the ball instantly compresses on the face not going up or down and then starts to move up the club face before the sole of the club hits the ground, again your quote says "decompressing ( adding energy to its escape."
i just cant see how if the face hits below the middle of the ball how the ball can do anything but rise up.
i think we will have to agree that we both have different ideas and both think were right and wont convince the other of our views.
good discussion though Max.
cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag

I think you don't get it because, as mentioned earlier, you don't actually hit down on the ball. You are having difficulty separating the swing instruction from the result. The entire swing instruction is just that, no more, a swing instruction. You swing the club "AS IF" you were....(insert the "PRETEND" result here). No one is saying that the club actually hits down/traps/pinches, etc., the ball as the result of the properly executed swing.

Ouch! Rather tetchy there Mox, It was meant to be a joke. I have been debating the subject matter and do not need to use any personal slights. I am surprised that you feel this is necessary.

OK lets talk physics if you prefer. The force of the clubface at impact is approx 2,000 psi, now imagine a golf ball sitting on some soft grass and earth, then a force of 2,000 pounds is applied by the lofted clubface and the ball is compressed between this and the earth. Under these conditions the ball would take the route of least resistance, that would not be to compress against the hard clubface but to bury it's self into the soft ground. A driver has loft, how does the ball spring off the driver's face at such high speed if there is no grass or earth for it to compress against?

The force vectors at impact are bi-directional due to the fact that a wedge or prism is being pushed under the ball, these vectors are both horizontal and vertical resulting in the ball sliding backwards up the clubface.

I put it to you there is no physical or mathematical evidence to support the theory of pinching the ball. I do however support the theory that it is a good swing thought to imagine the ball being pinched as this will promote a ball turf contact, even if turf pinching does not actually happen.

__________________
Best Regards
Brian

________________________________
Funny o'l game!

It only pushes forward due to the initial velocity overpowering the tilted axis that the ball is spinning on. As the forward velocity slows the side spin will become dominant and start the ball turning. This is exactly the same phenomenon as hooking or slicing a golf ball, it has nothing to do with compressing it into the ground.

If you hit a ball out of a fairway bunker the ball has to be struck clean, it will then project forwards, there is no way that it gets compressed into the soft sand to propel it's self forward.

THE BALL IS pushed down!

The ball ONLY spins up the clubface BECAUSE it can't move into the ground. It compresses and REACTS to the force applied (heard of equal and opposite reaction - Newton's 3rd law of motion?)

IF the ball had been suspended in the air, and you were to hit it below the equator with a lofted clubface in a DIRECTLY FORWARD direction, IT WOULD NOT SPIN up the clubface at all!!!

That is also why, when you hit UP with the driver, you get less spin, and also why the ball balloons if you hit down with a driver.

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme

This is now getting ridiculous.

The ball springs off the driver face because of compression due to the FORWARD vector, not because of the DOWNWARD vector.
It SPINS as a result of the downward vector.

You hit UP (or at the very least "less down") with the driver and get (surprise!) less spin. What happens if you hit down with the driver? More spin!

Odd, isn't it, since hitting UP effectively INCREASES loft, while hitting DOWN will DECREASE loft.

So now LESS loft means MORE spin, right ??

Of course not.

Loft affects launch ANGLE, not spin. Directional force affects spin. And yes - as already mentioned earlier in this topic, balls compress against the tee as well, which is why some companies develop "Zero Friction" tees, which reduce that compression and thus reduce spin (and gains you distance).

__________________
//Mox
2008 bag:
Mizuno MX-500 460cc 10.5* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff. (about to be replaced by MP-600 10,5* UST Proforce V2 stiff)
Mizuno F-50 3w 15* Fujikura Tour Platform 26.3 stiff.
Wilson Deep Red 5w 18* Graphalloy Fatshaft stiff
Cleveland HALO 3i hybrid 22* graphite regular
Mizuno MP-60e forged 5i-PW True Temper Dynamic gold R300 steel
Mizuno MP Black OX raw haze 50/6 GW, 54/9 SW, 58/10 LW
Heavy Putter B3-M
Titleist NXT Extreme

Once again, the FORWARD motion comes from the FORWARD vector.

Can you get the same spin from the fairway bunker as you can from the fairway? Or Hardpan?

No, you can't!

Why?

Because there is less compression against the ground, resulting in less motion up the clubface and thus less spin.