How-To "Backspin on chips"

It's been a long rather technical debate but if we think to debate the subject is important to us then I guess that's OK. I don't believe there has been any serious name calling here, a little irritation that others do not agree with ones reasoning but nothing more than that. It's a shame that you consider it immature Robin but at least it is not an offensive subject. Compulsive to some but never compulsory to others

OK, OK I apologise if any one thinks I was calling them immature and. However my original point merely echoed Mox about 80 posts ago when he said...

and whilst to a degree at least I'd agree that

I was just pointing out that the two sides of the argument both felt that their differing understandings of the physics helped them play the game better and neither side was being convinced by the other.

As for playground debate, well there's no denying that a lot of the thrust and counter thrust has been amusing and certainly little if any offensive but do yuo remember...



That said guys, the comtributors to this thread are amongst the ones I most respect on this forum so having made a small effort to defend my original stance I shall withdraw gracefully from this particular fray and leave you to it with I hope no hard feelings from any of us

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I firmly believe that we should try to experience all that life affords, except, perhaps, bestiality and of course Morris Dancing.

None at all mate. I think we know the difference between a heated debate and one that has transpired into personal attacks. Actually that cartoon by MOX was pointed to himself which was quite funny.

I do agree this subject has had a good airing and does not need any more air time (Well not until someone else says the ball is trapped between the clubface and ground )

Mox my friend, thanks for the cut and thrust of it.

Hey Bill,
the point I was going for is that the angle of attack is more important than where you contact the ball, also I would argue that we have as much of the ball available to us in golf as a snooker player does, we just dont get much benefit from hitting the ball above the equator...

In my mind the parallel is hitting down on a snooker ball and contacting it at or just below the equator, this (coupled with the bernoulli effect) is what gets the ball airborne.

Also I think its a slight misnomer to talk about the equator of the golf ball, as its not really important. The POC between ball and club is on the tangent the clubface makes with the ball. This can be seen as a perpendicular line from the clubface through the centre of the ball.

The less loft the club has the lower the launch angle (in the direction of the force N)

Finally ("whew!" I hear you say) I would like to say this. What we feel and think we are doing in golf usually bares little resemblance to what we are actually doing. If thinking of hitting the ball down into the ground helps you to hit the ball with a downward moving clubface then continue to think that. Likewise if thinking about the ball sliding up the clubface helps you to hit down on it, keep doing that too!

hi GreeBoman
i bow to your knowledge on snooker and hitting a snooker ball as i have only played it a few times.
i think the picture you sent in says more than words can tell and shows how the equator is level to the ground and only really a reference point and nothing else but when in contact with the ball if you take a line through the ball like in your picture it gives you the launch angle and you have a different equator with respect to the club face rather than the ground..
it was what i was trying to say about a nail through the club-face to show the angle the ball would leave the face and as you rightly said the lower the loft the lower the ball leaves the face.
i also think your right in what ever you think about the ball compressing with the earth or the club-face, both ways of thinking can help in the way you swing into the ball and get cleaner contact.
you make some good points.
cheers
bill

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Cheers Bill, appreciate your reply.
The absolute final point I will make is that the ball and the club are vital. The things I can do with a prov1 and either a Titleist Vokey or Taylormade y-cut wedges are silly.
I cant get close to the same stop on chips with my trusty old 60% Ping.

hi GreeBoman
i was put onto SMT durameter wedges by Lowpost and they put so much spin on the ball and were great wedges. but i found they the did mark up the ball a lot and left them scuffed as the milled face seemed to cut into the ball a lot.
i also found i got to much backspin and found it hard to control how far the ball spun back some times it would spin back about 20 feet.
i swapped then for for a ping 60 and 56 degree wedges and i don't get as much back-spin but its more controllably.
i do miss the shocked look on your playing partner when you pitched 15 feet past the hole and it spins back about 10 feet.
if you want a wedge that really puts spin on a ball the SMT durameter is the club you want.
cheers
bill

__________________
ping zing2 metal driver
ping zing2 metal 3 wood
ping eye2 1 iron
ping zing2 3/9 irons
ping ist 47% wedge
ping zing2 52% s/wedge
ping mb 56% wedge
ping c10 G2I broom handled putter
top flight "T" golf balls
white ping bag

Thanks Bill, I will take a look at them!

here is a nice video showing how a ball is contacted in a good hit:

i didn't see the ball being "pinched" into the ground at all

As I have been saying it isn't. You cannot even see the grass being deformed.

ya i know, i am on your side this time

Wow, what a discussion.

I'm afraid my heart and mind go with Mox on this. My mind tells me that there must be downward pressure on the ball, before it starts spinning. No ball goes from 0 to 5000rpm in a fraction of a second without experiencing some pretty strong resistance to that force, and Mox nails it in my mind that the ball will obviously start going the same direction as the clubhead is moving, until the ball starts spinning.

My heart also tells me that if you hit down, you get more spin. If you are in the rough, less spin, and the fairway will get you more. Wet grass, less spin, hardpan more spin. All down to pinching. All as Mox says.

And you see the pros taking huge divots, because they are hitting down on the ball.

My chips? Yes, given a prov1, and fairway (not rough), trying to hit down on the ball (actually getting my hands ahead of the ball, then "pinching down"), I get a pretty controlled chip, that stops predictably. The problem is, given rain and rough and so many factors, it seem better to practice running the ball with little backspin - a shot I can always use, even though the distance control may not be as good. The pros have more use for the backspin chip than I do, I think...

However, this has helped my pitches tremendously! I got my first "2-passes at the hole" pitch last weekend (bounced past the pin, then spun back past the hole again). It didn't go in, but man, were the guys impressed....

Remember in this forum, like on the course, the guy that has the most fun wins. Second is being right...

You hit the ball then you hit the ground, that's how you take divots and they should be in front of the ball. Look again at the video, can you can see that ball getting trapped into the turf? Of course there is some great resistance to the ball, the club strikes it with around 3,000 pounds of force and a lofted face, the ball deforms, sticks to the face then slides and rolls up it due to loft.

Anyhow, as I have said before, if it helps you to think the ball is trapped in the turf then that's fine.

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Best Regards
Brian

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Funny o'l game!

[quote=Yggdrasil;10557818]

I'm afraid my heart and mind go with Mox on this. My mind tells me that there must be downward pressure on the ball, before it starts spinning.

However, this has helped my pitches tremendously! [quote]

if this has helped then good, and to argue without seeing based off of scintific assumsions and theories, ok,

but after seeing a video of a clear downward spin porducing strike and not seeing even 1 ounce of that ball being depressed into the ground and still saying you think it gets pinched into the ground....