How-To "Backspin on chips"

Yggdrasil · #1 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 01:41 PM

Hey guys -

Please don´t explain why I don´t want backspin - I do.

I want to chip up on the green from 10-15 meters out, check, and stop. In other words, I want chip firmer shots to the green from further out, and use backspin to control my distance. Here in Norway we have a often get wet ground around the greens, so I want to hit the green, not try to run the chip onto the green (may stick, not bounce).

I´ll use Pro-V1´s, have the idea (pinching, wrist action for club-head speed).

But if I use my 60 degree, it tends to fly high, and if I use my P-wedge, it seems hard to hit it short enough.

How do you get greater clubhead speed without hitting over the green? I keep hearing "slice" or "cut" - maybe I just need some hours of practice to make it happen. For me, clubhead speed usually means "further from the hole on the other side of the green", or "popping the ball up into the air".

Hints from people who have learned?

(Please do not explain why I don´t want to do this....)

LowPost42 · #2 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 01:49 PM

It sounds like you're trying to hit the low checker - a 'one hop and stop' kind of chip.

There's two ways to do this, and your distance to the pin dictates which one to use.

Method one involves a clean lie and a real trapping of the ball to compress it well and produce tons of spin. A well compressed ball doesn't need a ton of swing speed to spin.

Method two involves fast hands. You hit a 'flip chip' where you slide the blade under the ball, producing a slightly higher trajectory and lots of spin. The best place to practice this is on the green (where you wouldn't dare hit down and try to compress the ball!)

Yggdrasil · #3 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 03:10 PM

Yeah, OK, that´s what I want.

But when I try to "pinch" the ball, that usually involves blading it, and "fast hands" seems to mean "fat, 3-foot pitch".

I guess I´m looking for techniques to pinch the ball - I´m guessing steady head, weight on forward foot -

I´ve been trying to turn my hips with my chip - but if you watch the pros, you don´t see much hip movement, if any. That implies a lot of hands and arms, but that´s the least accurate way..... so that leaves us with the shoulders, I guess.....

Tips? 80% shoulder turn, 20% "fast hands", with steady head? Turn hips? "Putting stroke" (shoulder turn) + hands? ??

Yggdrasil · #4 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 03:11 PM

Tell me how to "compress the ball well"....

LowPost42 · #5 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 03:30 PM

The most mind blowing drill I've ever done was as follows:

Grab your 8 iron (or 7 or 6 or 9, whatever you're comfortable with.

Put the ball back in your stance - middle or even further back. Make sure you're doing something so that you know that the ball is back (clubs on the ground or whatever).

Address the ball. Set your wrists (so cup the right) and so the club stays on the ball (ie don't let the clubhead come insiide - break your wrists so the clubhead stays on the target line).

Now, turn through.

Simple, isn't it?

It seems impossible to hit the ball this way - holding that wrist angle and simply turning, but it works. You get this low, piercing trajectory that spins. After a couple dozen balls it may help to put a tee in the ground 3" in front of the ball, and focus on making sure you dig out the tee. You'll start to hear this 'sproing' sound that lets you know that you're compressing the ball.

Yggdrasil · #6 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 03:54 PM

Now I like that. I can visualize it, and even feel it. I´m guessing that even though you keep your wrists cocked, you´d start putting some wrist pressure on the ball as you got better.

Never heard of "taking out the peg" as a method of learning to pinch. Sounds excellent.

I just got a whole bag of used "mint" ProV1´s, so I can use them for practice as well as play -

I really have use for a pinched chip shot, and am hoping that I can learn to make it stop where I want (distance control). I want that firm chip to the green, without running it on, with distance control. Just like Ernie Els does, and I´m a happy camper.

More! (though that was perfectly what I´m looking for) Thanks.

LowPost42 · #7 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 04:29 PM

The only 'more' I would offer is that, after playing a few rounds with my coach - this is how he warms up. He takes his 7 iron, and starts hitting these 80 yard shots with these tiny little swings until he's compressing the ball well. Then he starts hitting 115 yard 7 irons (swinging bigger while still compressing). Then 135, then 155, then he hits them at what feels to be a 3/4 swing. Then some drivers and some first tee clubs, some short pitches and chips and putts.

When I did this, I was carrying my 8i 140 yards before the drill. I found (and you will too) that it seemed that I was getting 90% of my normal carry yardage with what felt like a half swing - all due to good compression.

Yggdrasil · #8 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 04:42 PM

Excellent. I´ll be doing the same.

Q: I would have thought it would be easier to compress with a, say, 7-iron, instead of a 60 degree wedge - but when I watch the pros, the announcer always says they are using a 60 or 56 or some wedge or another.

It "looks" like they don´t have any extreme wrist cock through the stroke, but maybe that´s just TV for you.

I chip with a p-wedge for around 10 meters, 7 iron over 20 meters, try to avoid using 60-degree for chipping. Maybe all this will change if I keep wrist cock? Hopefully firmer stroke will yield shorter, controlled shot......

BrianW · #9 (**permalink**) 03-20-2008, 11:14 PM

You may not want to read this!!!!

10 to 15 Meters Out!

Loft creates spin, low trajectories are created with lower loft so they will not spin so much or check.

Good ball compression will assist the loft to create spin and will also create more speed.

If I wish the ball to land and check I hit it higher with loft by using a high lofted wedge, the face open to increase loft, slide the clubface under the ball so that compression is minimised but the balls flies high with low spin such that it stops on landing. This works best where the ball is sitting up on a fluffy lie.

It is possible to strike the ball a solid blow that creates good compression and spin with a lofted wedge by taking a short backswing and a longer follow through, this will impart good spin to the ball.

In the short game feel is king and needs practice.

EDIT:

How is your son getting on with his golf now?

Yggdrasil · #10 (**permalink**) 03-21-2008, 08:26 AM

No, this is about backspin (though I agree)...

And still an uphill battle with my son - he´ll play, seems to have a good time, then find an excuse not to play the next time... He hits better shots, obviously enjoys it, but he not self-motivated, yet....

Mox · #11 (**permalink**) 03-21-2008, 02:31 PM

One element is often completely forgotten when chipping is the subject:

Correct Swing Path.

Very often, when chipping, we are told to use an open stance and put our weight more on the left leg (for right handers) to move our swing center ahead of the ball, and then have our hands be ahead of the ball as well.

Now, if our stance is open, and swing center and hands are ahead of the ball, the natural swing path is

OUT-TO-IN

cutting across the ball.

Compared to the target line, cutting from out to in results in a closed clubface.
A closed clubface de-lofts the club, and neutralizes the bounce of the club.
The bounce is an essential element in spinning the ball.

You can try just about all you want to 'trap' and compress the ball between the club and the ground. If you don't have the bounce available to help you keep contact with the ball long enough to spin it, it just won't bite.

Make sure your hips and shoulders are lining up to the target, despite your feet being open, and make sure you have a club with the right bounce for the lie.
Fairway or good lies in the first cut, I go with a 54 degree wedge with 9 degrees of bounce. It checks up nicely.

bill reed · #12 (**permalink**) 03-21-2008, 04:10 PM

hi Max
it is not possible to compress the ball between the ground and the club face due to the loft of the clubs. if you take a 7 iron and put it behind the ball on a table you will see the the face meets the ball about half way below the middle on the ball and you will see the the shaft of the club leans forward a good bit too.
this compressing of the ball between the club face and ground is often talked about but it is not possible to do even with the shaft almost horizontal with the ground. the only compression you get is off the face. it's the same when people talk about hitting down on the ball to do that you have to hit the top half of the ball and you cant do that even with say a 1 iron you still hit just below the equator or middle of the ball. the degree of loft on a club does not let you hit below the middle of a ball.
get a club and put it next to a ball and you will see just what i mean.
cheers
bill

Mox · #13 (**permalink**) 03-21-2008, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bill reed

hi Max
it is not possible to compress the ball between the ground and the club face due to the loft of the clubs. if you take a 7 iron and put it behind the ball on a table you will see the the face meets the ball about half way below the middle on the ball and you will see the the shaft of the club leans forward a good bit too.this compressing of the ball between the club face and ground is often talked about but it is not possible to do even with the shaft almost horizontal with the ground. the only compression you get is off the face. it's the same when people talk about hitting down on the ball to do that you have to hit the top half of the ball and you cant do that even with say a 1 iron you still hit just below the equator or middle of the ball. the degree of loft on a club does not let you hit below the middle of a ball.
get a club and put it next to a ball and you will see just what i mean.
cheers
bill

I don't agree, and I don't think that is correct.

What you need to take into consideration is, that the face of the club is not moving in a horizontal direction when impact occurs.

As long as the face of the club is in contact with the ball while the ball is still in contact with the ground, it is being trapped. And that definately does happen when the ball is struck in a downward direction. Granted, not for long, but it does happen.

Oh ... and it's an o - in MOX, not an a as in Max

ben hogan · #14 (**permalink**) 03-21-2008, 05:09 PM

You Tube

bill reed · #15 (**permalink**) 03-21-2008, 05:20 PM

hi Mox
sorry i got you name wrong. my eyes must be getting bad.
please get any club and try and push the ball into the ground. it not possible to do due to the loft of the club and the fact that the face only makes contact with the ball below the mid point and if you draw a line from the face that is the angle the ball leave the club, and the club is traveling forward just as much as it traveling downward with the high lofted clubs and it face always strike the ball upwards and never downwards. even a putter has loft on the face.
try it and you will see what i mean. i use to think like you and that you could trap the ball between the face and the ground but i have been shown it cant be done unless you us a putter and have -loft on the face, as long as there is loft on the face then it can't be done.
get a lump of plasticine and put a ball on it and try and get the ball to make a dent in it. just holding the bottom of the shaft in your hand, you will see it cant be done.
your swinging down but also forward and the loft means your always hitting below the middle of the ball so cant push the ball down if you hit below the middle of the ball, you would have to hit at the middle or above to force the ball between the ground and the club face.
you must have to press down on the ball to compress it into the ground and how do you do that if the face only makes contact below the middle of the ball. how can it press the ball down????
cheers
bill

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